So, in the aftermath of last night's disappointing result, there have been more derogatory comments about computers and data analysis. Both Speakman and Johnson have explained its use in podcasts. They have told us that its a tool to help them, not a total reliance on data to drive everything. Its not difficult to go online and find out more about this approach and to allay your fears that traditional scouting has been dismissed. So why are people so opposed to this? Since its codification, the history of football has been one of constant innovation: Queen's Park and the passing game; Herbert Chapman and the W-M; the 'Danubian School' culminating in the Hungary team of the early 1950s; monkey gland therapy at Wolves; the shift to 442; Charles Reep and POMO; Total Football; the 'post-Cruyffian' approach of coaches like Guardiola etc. Yet, for a sport with such a history, football has been strangely backward in coming forward when it comes to data analysis. It has been used successfully in a number of sports, including rugby union and ice hockey, as well as in athletics and, of course, American sports. As this article points out, the growing interest in it following the Oakland Athletics' experiment with 'moneyball' bypassed football for some time. https://soccerment.com/the-importance-of-football-analytics/ Is it that we're all huge traditionalists? I can understand the argument that football is a much more intuitive game, much freer-flowing, than some of those that I've mentioned above. For that reason, I've always been against the use of technology like VAR. But you don't see fans of Liverpool, Barcelona or other clubs that are noted for their use of data analysis complaining about it. Its use, looking at those two clubs, clearly doesn't lead to boring football or the elimination of spontaneity in the game. I can't escape the feeling that the complaints are just a stick to beat a manager that isn't universally popular (perhaps because he doesn't talk like other managers, perhaps because he doesn't pick particular players, or perhaps because, as @monty987 said, he's southern) but lots of people would be happy to have Sam Allardyce, who is just as likely to use this approach as Johnson, back. Johnson won't be our manager forever but data analysis won't leave with him. We're all delighted to have Kyril Louis-Dreyfuss here, right? Well, this is the approach that he wants to use. So we'd all better get used to it.
Just read the thread title and assumed Marshall Eriksen was right off "How I met your mother" with his song called Marshall Vs the Machines.
Great post. I dont understand the negativity either. I respect peoples right to differ in opinions but to not even give these approaches, that many clubs more successful than us and much better run than us use successfully, a chance to work or fail is not for me. Happy to get behind the owner personally and his approach, we have been in the doldrums far too long.
KLD's changes are just what I've been wishing for, for a long time. Like you say, everyone is entitled to their opinion but what he's doing seems so obviously right to me that I am genuinely interested in why people don't like it.
I love that they're using data. And I love that they're building a model of what they want players in each position to be good at, and recruiting and training players at all age groups into that model. My one reservation is, who is defining that model of what each player should be doing? It should be based around a tactical formation and profile that is succesful, and currently I don't think we have any evidence that anybody at the club knows what that looks like yet? Is it Speakman deciding what players or positions need to excel in? Or is it Johnson? I guess the answer is that its a collaborative decision. But they're obviously basing this all on theory rather than any success either of them have had on the pitch.
As we haven't had the ability to test this system, (At start of last window we were told that we didn't have the data analysts to inform recruitment) how can people blame the January signings on "machines". We have only now got a recruitment resource in place so can blame future failures, if any, on the system but not any of our current squad they are all the result of the purely uninformed, subjective system of recruitment.
Yeh the January signings didn't really come from data as they've said they hadn't finalised the models of what they were looking for by then. Can only judge the new style recruitment from this summer.
Data analysis is a large part of my working life - It is being used everywhere I've worked to improve processes and get stuff done in a better way. I like Johnson and what he says - for me it's a lot better than the usual cliche stuff from the likes of Bruce, Parkinson etc. please log in to view this image
I moaned about it yesterday whereas I had said days earlier we have to move with the times and anything that helps, or something or other. Yesterday I was very pìssed off with the result and thought "fook em". Today I have mellowed and am now hoping for a 3-0 win at home. If we don't get to the final thats me finished with them for this season. No wait
I hope the new technology can repeat the level of recruitment we got at the academy pre season, do that and I will start to believe that we are on the right track. Data is fine but results on the field are the ultimate test.
A great American poster who used to come on here used to extol the virtues of statistical analysis and data in American sport. I'm going back about 5 years. I believe it was Outlaw. Mr Moneyball billy beane has put it in place at Barnsley and they are no ****ing slouch. It's the future. Adapt or get left behind.
I reckon we can recruit entirely based on data in League One and do far better than Coton and co. Not that we'll do just that, of course. I'd put money on us being one of the poorest teams in the division in terms of yards covered, for example.
Using the data driven approach is fine, but there is a real danger that the player can get lost as the focus is on their data rather than on the whole person. I read an article last week about how kids at football academies feel hugely stressed out because of the pressure to improve every aspect of their performance data every day. You can't build a team just using a data driven approach, people work better if they feel appreciated and not just another cog in a machine. I hope we manage to balance our approach because our assets are people and sometimes people need an arm around the shoulder to get the best out of them. They remember how you make them feel and when you treat them well, support them when they are down, then they will run through brick walls for you. My concern is that LJ doesn't seem to have that effect upon the players. As for what LJ says, all I see is that he just uses a different set of cliches.
A large part of what has been said in Johnson's and Speakman's recent interviews has been to dispell the idea that that is what they're going to do. Johnson used the word 'holistic' a couple of times in his interview and, while some people will hold his vocabulary against him, that's precisely what we want to hear about his approach- all available tools will be used. There are so many examples of where this method of doing things has been a success that we need not have any fear that its damaging.
Does this apply to supporters too, will showing we love them all on Saturday lift them to break through those brick walls? Hope so!
Does this data thingy have to be linked exclusively with our current manager or can anybody be the manager. Cos LJ has gone from hero to zero in the space of a couple of months in the view of a lot of fans. I thought he was the dogs gonads but had in mind what the Bristol fans said about him being streaky either having a good run of results or a piss poor run both of which we've had under LJ. Will KLD back him or have someone else lined up I suppose only time will tell.
i honestly thought this was the plan when we took our (failed badly) DoF approach...actively seek out players who fitted the profile the club wanted rather than always finding square pegs, or did i miss something along the way? i do remember that most of the fails from that period in the clubs history seemed to stem from the fact that Mr Short had the proverbial taken out of him by most of the staff and our recruitment policy also seemed to be a 'jobs for the boys' scenario of using agents who were mates...i do not really have a problem with the 'new plan', nothing else has worked (quite often through a more lack-lustre approach than the plan itself i reckon) and the current regime appear to have a good hold on this idea as recruitment was all based on getting this backroom squad together for one straightforward reason and that is to get the club moving forward with one aim. the above is quite possibly why many have reservations, plus a lot of us still prefer to see a manager who kicks a few arses when the time is right rather than 'well, let's analyse your recent performances, shall we?'...then proceed to tell the player he was completely ****e in the past three games and start telling him his job!!
