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The England team and the youth teams

Discussion in 'Southampton' started by benditlikeabanana, Jun 10, 2013.

  1. benditlikeabanana

    benditlikeabanana Well-Known Member

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    After our dismal exit from the U21s and the iminant departure of one failed manager only to be replaced by another failed manager in Southgate, my question is are the FA treating our youth players well?
    With a high number of Saints players now involved in teams from U16 to U21 is there a posibility that the FAs lack of a clear plan for youth players actually does harm to young players?
    The FA has invested a fortune in a state of the art HQ yet can not put together a plan where 1 person is in overall charge of youth developement, each squad has a different manager and the all play a different style or formation. Is it too hard to agree on one style of play and all youth teams play that way ? similar to how Southampton and most teams run thier acadamys.
    Pearce gave the same old lame excuses that the main squad stole his players, yet he was willing to steal Luke Shaw away from the U19s or the U20s who are having a world cup this summer. Ido agree that players like Ox and Rodwell should have been with the U21s, or in Ox case with the U20s. I had the misfortune to watch the last U20 world cup games for England in Colombia, 37 players could not attend because they were either involved with the U21s, thier team did not allow them to attend or the players preferred to be on the beach. I watched 3 lousy games without a single goal. When will the FA insist that it benifits a young player more to be involved in tournaments rather than sitting on thier arse as part of the full England squad. Spain, Germany take these youth tournaments very seriously and so should we, the appointment of Southgate keeps us treading water though.
     
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  2. standingfootonly

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    I think it is mostly the style of play, rather than who goes. The example that made me dispair most when watching the u21s was the sight of butland kicking the ball aimlessly downfield. This followed hodgsons advice to joe hart in the seniors that he should 'kick to the centre, not the wings, so we can compete for the knock down'. Ye gods, we may as well bring back graham Taylor! Contrast this with Italy u21s whose keeper always passed out from the back to his defenders. Internationally, we are going nowhere. Saints players are better out of it.
     
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  3. Puck

    Puck Well-Known Member

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    We do have something of a problem with our best young players not going to these tournaments but I think plenty of people recognise the bigger problem is youth coaching, tactics etc. Kids playing competitive 11-a-side games too early and coaches sticking the biggest strongest kid up front to out-muscle and/or out-run defenders and give the team a better chance of victory. As a result the English game is too often about power and pace, and that doesn't win tournaments.
     
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  4. fatletiss

    fatletiss Well-Known Member

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    It is not the style of play that is wrong. It is the quality of technical ability that we develop. If you don't develop generations of technical players, the overall standard stays low and then when they are older they don't have the ability to play varied styles of play.

    It starts at the bottom. Massive overhaul now, or years and years of the same.
     
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  5. fatletiss

    fatletiss Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Very much correct. My team are 12 years Ild and under 13a come August. Next season we have to play 11 v 11. No choice. I would stay at 9 v 9 until 14s maybe even 15s.
     
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  6. fran-MLs little camera

    fran-MLs little camera Well-Known Member

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    The FA have to provide advice and opportunity for the training of coaches. I presume that is what they are planning at St George's. Any change won't be instant though...takes a while to filter through. They have made a start by altering the youth game...11-a-side on a full-sized pitch isn't right for young kids.
     
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  7. fatletiss

    fatletiss Well-Known Member

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    Fran, the problem is they are beyond slow. The change to pitch and goal size as well as 11 v 11 being dropped for younger ages first happened several years ago, but instead of doing it correctly, they did it in fits and starts.

    The real problem is the lack of "policing" of coaching. Each FA Chartered boys team has to have one level one coach per team. On this level one course, they teach you all about encouraging the team and developing the players. They also send you on a Welfare course which is intended to stop coaches screaming at the kids and to make them realize that developing skills is more important than anything. They also teach you to manage the parents. What then happens is the coach gets his certificate, puts it in his draw, the club tick the box that says "level one qualified" and they go back to "big kid at the back, big kid up front and get the ball to Johnny quickly, we're one nil down"

    EVERY week, I witness coaches and parents screaming at the kids. Screaming instructions. I listen to coaches shout at referees and question every decision. It is wrong.

    On one course, I asked my local FA Welfare officer who within the organisation is responsible checking at weekends that the coaches are doing what we were taught. The response? "Oh, we don't do that"

    I tackle it locally when my team are playing. I ask coaches why they are screaming at the kids. I ask them to stop questioning the referee decisions as it's not following the RESPECT campaign that my kids are taught to follow. I often get scowled at or told I don't what I'm on about when questioning other coaches; the coach who's team get a free-kick on the edge of the centre circle and he shouts at his team "Let Johnny take it, he can shoot from there"... I really do ask them what they are teaching them and what benefit it will give that kid when he's 18 and his team get a free kick near the half way line.

    This is the English Disease and it is wrong, wrong, wrong. We will not progress until we over come it.
     
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  8. saintlyhero

    saintlyhero Well-Known Member

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    FLT, I have no involvement in kids football today but sounds no different to when I was a nipper 20 odd years ago.
    I joined my local tyro league side between 7-9 and made zero appearances in two years. When my dad asked the coach why I was never selected despite training every week it was because I was too small or the team was on a winning run and it would be unfair to drop any of them.

    Now you can draw your own conclusions on my ability, but even at under 8 level the emphasis was on winning and having a physically strong side rather than on inclusion and technical improvement. It's a shame that sounds no different today and I'm sure I'm not alone in being alienated from club football.
    I ended up moving to play hockey and as a minority sport they were far more welcoming to youngsters and did there best to involve every kid. Needless to say I found the sport more fun to be part of.
     
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  9. Tony Montana

    Tony Montana Member

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    If we're gonna continue playing this awful football that the seniors play then why don't we just play carrol lambert (or someone else undeservedly)and crouch up top and lump it into them, what defence is gonna be able to deal with that? Would truly shocking to watch but effective.
     
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  10. fatletiss

    fatletiss Well-Known Member

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    That's awful but, I'm afraid not shocking. I have two boys who joined my team two seasons ago because for two teams in a row they only got 5 mins at the end of every game.

    At mini soccer level which is from 5 aside to 9 aside, ages U7 to U12 (inclusive), each sub I had at a game played at least half of each half; guaranteed. All squad boys available for a match day were selected, so sime days i had six subs for 9 a side. Next season is 11 a side and so it will be more like normal football and no time guarantees.
     
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  11. Lord Duckhunter

    Lord Duckhunter New Member

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    Having had 3 boys with a 12 year age difference I must say that the coaching has got better the past few years. It's certainly a lot better than the early 70's when I was a nipper. Skills are encouraged, you don't often hear the shout of "get rid" or "cut out the fancy stuff", which were common in my youth . The problem is the culture of British kids and British football supporters. Dario Gradi said that give Spanish, French or German kids a ball each and they'll do keepy uppys, and practise skills. Do the same for a British kid and he'll run with the ball, before smashing it into an empty net.

    At the elite level we only seem to develop certain types of players, that as good as they are aren't going to win you games alone. The all action midfielder ala Byran Robson or Steve G, solid centre half like John Terry and quick wingers that cant cross the ball. I'm convinced if Luka Modric or David Silva were British they would be lost to the game, we just don't seem to develop those type of players. Paul Scholes is the only one I can think of since Bally retired, and he was misused by countless England managers. Other countries have a production line of these sort of players, we have one a generation if we're lucky. Tactically our players play in a straight jacket, they just don't seem capable of subtle changes and variations during the ebb and flow of the game. They just do the same thing, but just try harder.
     
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  12. RLSGM

    RLSGM Member

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    While I agree with a lot of what you say. Players who were technically gifted but ignored in our tactics, Matt Le Tissier? He was easily the best English player on the ball in the mid 90s but wasn't given a chance.

    As already stated by many who are also invoved with juinior coaching, is the attitude of many clueless people who seem to be held in high regard. Gareth Southgate is just another puppet who will shoulder the blame in 2 years. The problem has incurred in most talented young English players well before the age of 10, let alone 21 and playing international football! Players are overlooked in many academies, they focus on finding the 'best kids' rather than developing those with good attitudes. My friend was dropped by Brighton aged 12 for being too small, he is now 6ft 3 and built like a brick wall, and captained Sussex U15's for a time. He was given no help at all to develop and quit after finishing junior football, there was no pathway for him to follow as Brighton is the only decent academy around and could not travel every day to go to London or anywhere else due to School commitments. It is the many millions of examples like this why people drop out. People need to be nurtured and not just rely on natural talent. For me, this is not happening at present.
     
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  13. saintlyhero

    saintlyhero Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure the majority of kids coaches are like FLT and try to instill a fairness and an appreciation of skill.

    I would ask how long young kids spend being coached, is it 2 hours a week say? Do you give them homework to practice a skill? Do they play virtually every break at school & after school? (like I remember doing).

    Sorry for all the questions but curious on the subject.
     
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  14. Joe!

    Joe! Well-Known Member

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    I'd just like to point out that only 8 teams play in the U21 tournament, so we've done pretty well to qualify.
     
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  15. fran-MLs little camera

    fran-MLs little camera Well-Known Member

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    Our qualification was pretty impressive...didn't let in a goal in 8 games or something. England always seem to be good at qualifying, but rarely do well in the tournaments. However, I did expect us to get through the first phase....not exactly a tough group.
     
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  16. benditlikeabanana

    benditlikeabanana Well-Known Member

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    but we beat both Norway and Israel on the way to the finals, in the last 3 games we were as dangerous as a baby rabbit
     
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  17. fatletiss

    fatletiss Well-Known Member

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    As to your first point, I slightly disagree. In the 5 seasons I've coached this team, I would estimate that 20% of coaches only focus in skill, technique and fun, with the rest just trying to win games.

    I do try and get the boys to practise at home but it rarely happens. I try to make sure a ball is involve in all sessions (only once in 5 years have I given them a running session and that was a behaviour issue. I also try and have mini match variations as I think small games is the best way to learn.

    Posing questions rather than giving instructions or answers is the best way to develop them. I mentioned once before that a year ago, I had a friendly match and in the first half I asked the parents to shout nothing at all in the first half. Literally nothing. I didn't tell them why. In the second half I let them shout and cheer as normal. In the first half m there was one goal and my team played some lovely football under their own decision making while the opposition looked a little headless. In the second half it was chaos with all parents encouraging and "helping" with instructions. There were 11 goals in the second half. The game ended 6-6. What was even more amazing was at the end of the game, the parents asked me why I had asked them to be quiet in the first half and it was only when I pointed out the frantic second half that they realised.
     
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  18. saintlyhero

    saintlyhero Well-Known Member

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    Thanks FLT,

    Too many cooks would be the metaphor there and like a lot of things in life. Everyone has an opinion. So no wonder the kids get confused with different shouts.
    Shame only 20% think long term on the football front.

    I guess that's mostly down to the number of qualified coaches we have which I know is well down compared to our top European rivals. Expect many teams are looked after by Dads or Uncles who volunteer and won't have the extra time or the money to go on coaching courses.
    I know from experience that looking to learn the coaching badges was a challenge to do without money & travel.
     
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