I must admit to a feeling of massive anticlimax during and after the race. For me racing is abll about seeing champions and when a whole heap of horses finish in a heap that suggests that none of them are exceptional. Pour Moi came from a mile back and won cosily enough in the end. It was a well timed run by Barzalona even if his celebration was less perfectly executed! I bet he and connections are pleased that it didn't cost them the race. He quickened up well and showed a smart turn off foot but i'm not convinced that he will be able to really threaten the older horses like So You Think and Workforce. At this stage i would be very much in the older horse camp. Carlton House didn't get the best trip but i think he had every chance to win and could never get past Treasure Beach let alone beat the winner. He may find other chances but my suspicion is that he is just short of top class. Ryan Moore was fuming at something so it will be interesting to hear his thoughts on the race. He was forced wide but the winner came wider still and from further back. Treasure Beach, and to a certain extent Memphis Tennessee, showed that Aidan O'Brien's second strings are not to be dismissed. They both finished in front of the more fancied duo of Recital and Seville. I thought they were both disappointing but particularly Seville who looked completely outclassed. Recital ran ok without ever really threatening and he looked to struggle with the trip. It looked like Recital wants 10f and Seville wants at least 16f! Native Khan ran well without ever quite being able to overhaul the leaders. He seems to stay ok but will possibly improve for a drop back to 10f. He seemed to pick up coming up the straight but then just kept losing his balance and momentum as he tried to quicken and as a consequence was never able to get on terms. Vadamar ran ok without ever looking like mounting a challenge. Ocean War failed to handle the track and he looks like a drop in clas is required. Masked Marvel ran ok without ever really looking like getting involved. Overall, the race possibly looked a disappointing renewal on paper, and i think it definitely turned out that way. The winner looks useful but i don't think he will be able to threaten once he meets the older horses for the firt time. I think the form looks suspect with both Treasure Beach and Memphis Tennessee so close. It seems that there is no real stand out 3yo middle distance colt at the moment, though there is still plenty of time for one to claim that position. And finally Treasure Beach and Native Khan both gave a nice little boost to the Frankel form. Would Frankel have won? Personally i think they made the right decision to bypass the race but i can't help thinking what would have been, especially as nothing really grabbed the stage to suggest they could challenge the dominance of Frankel. I suppose it is a mute point but something i am sure we have all considered nevertheless.
And dont forget Pour Moi not only came from last but was hanging all over the place in the straight.A far better victory than the winning margin suggests. A flattish track over 12f and this horse is going to be very tough to beat in all the top races. You are right about Carlton house...not quite top class.Even with losing a shoe in the final furlong,he wasn't good enough
I think Pour Moi might prove himself to be a pretty good Derby winner. He's unlikely to take on the older horses until the Arc so we'll probably see him in the Irish Derby or Grand Prix de Paris next and then he'll have a typical French preparation for the Arc. I also think that being a son of Montjeu he'll probably be better on softish ground and he could take plenty of beating in a soft ground Arc. I've always thought that the Arc suits 3YOs far better than the older horses and especially when you've got a 3YO like Pour Moi trained by Monsieur Napoleon Fabre who's the best there is at preparing a horse to win an Arc.
Its a bit too early to suggest that Carlton House is not quite top class, many a good horse has lost in the Derby and gone on to be a very smart racehorse and I for one think he showed enough from Tattenham Corner to suggest that he could still be top class over 10 and 12 furlongs. I thought Mssr Moore was outridden by the front two, one made him go for home before he would have liked and the other showed electric speed to get up in the shadows of the post. Lets wait and see what the horses do before rubbishing Carlton House or any of those in behind. As for Frankel, he didn't run because they don't think he stays, and I for one think Cecil is right in that. A superb Arc could be in order, but we have a lot of top class racing before then, the first day of Royal Ascot could be the best days racing for the last decade or so.
Personally I don't think you can take anything away from the winner- his victory was similar to that of Santa Claus in the sixties. Let's face it, he was last coming down the hill, and when Carlton House made his move , he was still 6 lengths behind that horse- let alone the leader. As Dancingbrave says, he was hanging all over the place and he lost some momentum when his rider changed his whip into his left hand- to straighten him up. It took a good horse to win from where he did and he might have been a very, very unlucky loser if the post had come too soon. You'd have to be crazy to say he wasn't easily the best horse-despite the narrow margin. You need to keep an open mind as to how good he might be. I reckon he's a good horse.
I wouldn't disagree with anything said, but my point is that i don't think i saw a champion. I may be wrong.
Is a Derby winner ever not a champion? Its the pinnacle of UK racing and thus surely Pour Moi is a champion?
Just read that A.Fabre told(not sure if it was true) Magnier before the race that Pour Moi displayed more speed that Pientre de Celebre!!Well considering that that horse was a monster im not surprised Pour Moi won.Wish id heard that before the race.
Dancingbraveforever before the race he said he was the best chance he had in the race, and Visindar wasn't half bad in the past!
Yeh i heard that. But i kind of disregarded his comment on the grounds that he never really seemed interested in winning the English equivalent. Next time i will listen and digest his comments.
you and me both, I thought he was saying it because it was easy to say!! Left red faced by it, but will learn for the future!
Was last at Tattenham Corner, and just got up on the line, reminded me a little of Lammtarra! I wouldn't discount the horse because it was a bunched finish, as plenty of top horses have just scraped home, and plenty of easy winners have flopped after. No other horse had any excuses the best horse won
I thought the young jock was absolutely brilliant,,the best I can say is SIR LP would have been proud of that ride in a Derby.
My initial reaction was that too many finished too close together to consider any horse in the race to be a future champion. However, on reflection, the winner came from a long way back and was travelling noticeably faster than anything else, including going past Carlton House. Purely on looking at the race there is no reason to think any of the runners could possibly beat Pour Moi should they meet again. What we don't know is whether Carlton House could have stolen the race had he not got forced so wide and used up his finishing speed before getting home and had his race preparation not been interrupted and had he not lost a shoe in the final furlong. The combination of all these factors could have changed things but we won't know until they meet again. Pour Moi was beaten comfortably by Baraan over 11f at Longchamp and, although he was running on well at the finish, it is difficult to associate that form with a champion, unless of course he is a late maturer and his next race shows him to have improved from the Derby. I then think back to some greats who didn't win the Derby by far and one in particular who didn't actually win it. This is so early in a horse's development that I think it depends how far forward (or backward) these horses are relative to each other at this stage. I'm reserving judgement until the KG. By then we might have a much better idea.
But he obviously is improving every race Ron as he hacked up in the Prix Greffulhe at Saint-Cloud in May after being beaten on his re-appearance against Baraan.I wouldn't put it past him to keep on improving all season. And i can foresee 2 or 3 more runs this season for him.The Prix Niel,then the Arc and maybe a tilt at the BC Turf.
Just watched the race through again a couple of times. I am more impressed by the winner than i was but i am still not entirely convinced. Pour Moi was clearly finishing by far the best of all but i think many of the fancied runners (Carlton House, Native Khan and Recital) were just flattening out at the finish and coming back to him whereas he clearly stayed every yard of the trip. He was value for more than the winning margin but i would still prefer to be in the Workforce/So You Think camp for the all age championships later in the year. Recital looked all at sea the whole way up the home straight and he would still be of interest on an easier track. He looks very talented but obviously has his quirks.
I don't know what to make of the race. The winner was clearly too good. He spotted them a start, came wide and beat them to the line. But with so many looking a chance with a couple of furlongs to go, I too felt that this wasn't going to be one of the better Classics. I can't help but think that the open G1 races are at the mercy of the older horses. I suppose the interesting points of discussion to come out of the Derby, will forever be, the non appearance of Frankel. I don't know if he could have won, seeing as just about everything in the race hit the wall in the straight. AOB has again put together a plan to lay open the race for his stable, and again come undone, as he could only finish second. But I think his son did a Sterling job on Memphis Tennessee. He destroyed all but the winner. The more I see of the lad, the more I like him. I can see him, one day, taking the premier rider job for Coolmore.
Cyc, his lad is too big to be a long term flat jockey. He will probably end up working for his old man at the yard rather than race riding. He is already struggling to do the weight and he is only going to get bigger.
If the Derby had been a mile-and-a-half handicap at Doncaster and you could have thrown a blanket over the first half dozen, everybody would have agreed that the form was worthless. That is how I view it. Mickael Barzalona obviously did not take any instructions on how to ride Epsom from anybody worth a candle. He was last at Tattenham Corner and came wide down the middle of the track at the finish but all credit to him for winning. He was on the best horse on the day. I am not sure why there was so much sour grapes by the Carlton House team as the winner came from behind them.
