The Convincingly Taken Title Thread

[u408379965]

That's fascinating because I have exactly the opposite opinion. I thought Button held on well, playing percentages in a difficult car, and in the end took the championship by its balls; and I thought that, in a car Red Bull acknowledge was stronger than the RB7, Vettel stumbled over the line when the two main contenders got wrapped up in each other's strategies in the final race. I'm not suggesting he wasn't deserving or that he lucked into it because of a single race (same as Raikkonen in 2007) but, in my opinion, it was less convincing than Button's championship.

Over the course of the season Vettel stumbled, but I'm talking about the business end of the season when the pressure is at its greatest. Vettel and Alonso upped their game, Hamilton and Webber became error-strewn and Button's pace completely evaporated. Fastest car or not, Vettel cranked out pole after pole, win after win, maximising his results, barring an engine failure in Korea he probably would've won the last four grands prix. I thought he drove fantastically that day (night), you can say he had the best car in 2010, and he did, but the gaps he was ripping out in Korea after the safety cars weren't purely down to the car, he was pulling out 7-8 second leads in two laps. Then showed resilience after his engine blew out, didn't let his head drop and just stuck at it for the rest of the season.

Button on the other hand was lacklustre as the pressure cranked up and was frequently beaten by Rubens. He drove excellently in Brazil, but that was a rare performance from him in the second half of the season.

I agree with this 100%.

Until Vettel is actually under real pressure to perform or is being chased for a WDC, rather than the chaser, only then can he be judged on how good he handles it.

He chased in 2010 and lead from the front in 2011.

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[Masanari]

Over the course of the season Vettel stumbled, but I'm talking about the business end of the season when the pressure is at its greatest. Vettel and Alonso upped their game, Hamilton and Webber became error-strewn and Button's pace completely evaporated. Fastest car or not, Vettel cranked out pole after pole, win after win, maximising his results, barring an engine failure in Korea he probably would've won the last four grands prix. I thought he drove fantastically that day (night), you can say he had the best car in 2010, and he did, but the gaps he was ripping out in Korea after the safety cars weren't purely down to the car, he was pulling out 7-8 second leads in two laps. Then showed resilience after his engine blew out, didn't let his head drop and just stuck at it for the rest of the season.

Button on the other hand was lacklustre as the pressure cranked up and was frequently beaten by Rubens. He drove excellently in Brazil, but that was a rare performance from him in the second half of the season.

I think the two situations are incomparable really. For Vettel in 2010 he was never leading the WDC and was always chasing it which is much much easier to do and he was not even one of the favourites, they were Webber, Alonso and Hamilton, so he really was not under much pressure so he could just go out there and drive.

Button is 2009 was leading the entire season from start to finish and every race was defending his lead rather than chasing someone elses, so had everything to loose rather than everything to win like Vettel in 2010. The circumstances were also very different with Button being 29? being in crap cars all his career and suddenly finally getting a car that could win races so you have the added pressure of this possibly being your only chance of winning the WDC. Vettel was only 23 with his entire career ahead of him so is most likely to have other chances of winning the WDC. Another difference was that while the RB6 did have a few reliability issue it was easily the fastest car throughout the season which makes it much easier knowing that you have the fastest car under you. Button in 2009 started off with the fastest car but after the first 7 races or so they dropped behind the RB5 and eventually the Mclaren, so he had to deal with that as well.

Another thing I would like to add about Button in 2009 was while yes his quali performances deteriorated during the year his race performances never did, come Sunday he always delivered and got the best possible result his quali performance allowed.

 

[TomTom94]

He chased in 2010 and lead from the front in 2011.

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How many races were there left when he won? Not really the greatest amount of pressure on his shoulders.

As for 2010, I agree with the view that he inherited that championship, mostly due to the lack of DRS and KERS that stuck Alonso behind Petrov.

 

[u408379965]

I think the two situations are incomparable really. For Vettel in 2010 he was never leading the WDC and was always chasing it which is much much easier to do and he was not even one of the favourites, they were Webber, Alonso and Hamilton, so he really was not under much pressure so he could just go out there and drive.

Don't really get how you can include Alonso among the favourites, he was even further out of it than Vettel for most of the season. If you're focussing on the last few races then you can't include Hamilton without Vettel.

 

[u408379965]

How many races were there left when he won? Not really the greatest amount of pressure on his shoulders.

So if he'd have messed up mid-season, perhaps if Button had won Spa and Monza, and clinched it in Abu Dhabi or Brazil that would've been more impressive?

Also, at the people detracting from Vettel here, who are you comparing him to? People seem to invent specific sets of circumstances he hasn't won in and criticise him about it.

The guy's only 24 and gets criticised for not having done it all already. I'm just interested to know what point people are trying to make here, because all these points are equally applicable to every driver on the grid, barring Schumacher and maybe Alonso. Are the people saying he's unproven, suggesting the likes of Hamilton and Button aren't?

 

[TomTom94]

So if he'd have messed up mid-season, perhaps if Button had won Spa and Monza, and clinched it in Abu Dhabi or Brazil that would've been more impressive?

Also, at the people detracting from Vettel here, who are you comparing him to? People seem to invent specific sets of circumstances he hasn't won in and criticise him about it.

The guy's only 24 and gets criticised for not having done it all already. I'm just interested to know what point people are trying to make here, because all these points are equally applicable to every driver on the grid, barring Schumacher and maybe Alonso. Are the people saying he's unproven, suggesting the likes of Hamilton and Button aren't?

The point that people are trying to make is that the Red Bull RB7 was so utterly dominant last year it detracts slightly from the impressiveness of Vettel's victory. I have the same opinion about some of Schumacher's titles.

 

[Masanari]

Don't really get how you can include Alonso among the favourites, he was even further out of it than Vettel for most of the season. If you're focussing on the last few races then you can't include Hamilton without Vettel.

Alonso had a lot of attention due to his form in the last half of the season and in the run-in was certainly regarded by the media as a favourite for the WDC. Hamilton was one the favorites for most of the season and despite him falling away during the later stages of the season he was still a front runner for most of the season. I think the reason why Vettel was never under the same scrutiny was because Webber was always ahead of him in the points so when looking at the favorites Webber always received most of the attention in Red Bull from the media rather than Vettel. It is similar for Alonso at Ferrari, Massa never was in the title race so all the focus was on Alonso in regards to the WDC.

 

[allsaintchris.]

He chased in 2010 and lead from the front in 2011.

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I think you misunderstood me.

I meant Vettel has never been chased by anyone in a championship. IN 2010 he was teh underdog, so no one expected him to come back and win it from where he was, so he had no pressure.

As for 2011, no pressure as it was a complete walk over.

 

[genjigonzales]

Over the course of the season Vettel stumbled, but I'm talking about the business end of the season when the pressure is at its greatest. Vettel and Alonso upped their game, Hamilton and Webber became error-strewn and Button's pace completely evaporated. Fastest car or not, Vettel cranked out pole after pole, win after win, maximising his results, barring an engine failure in Korea he probably would've won the last four grands prix. I thought he drove fantastically that day (night), you can say he had the best car in 2010, and he did, but the gaps he was ripping out in Korea after the safety cars weren't purely down to the car, he was pulling out 7-8 second leads in two laps. Then showed resilience after his engine blew out, didn't let his head drop and just stuck at it for the rest of the season.

Button on the other hand was lacklustre as the pressure cranked up and was frequently beaten by Rubens. He drove excellently in Brazil, but that was a rare performance from him in the second half of the season.

From that I can see why you see it your way, I just can't see it your way. I did say I thought Vettel put together a good title bid in 2010 reminiscent of Raikkonen's championship campaign, but the manner in which he won it wasn't heroic the way Button's was. You talk about the business end of the season but at the pointy end of the business end, like Hamilton in 2008, his win depended on other drivers' misfortune. In terms of his campaign, everything came good for him towards the end. Indeed, by the mid-season it was already apparent that the team's weight was behind him despite Webber's ascendancy. I'm not saying it was a cinch but in comparison, in 2009, Button's machinery deteriorated from quite early on as it was developed to suit Barrichello and, far from being "lacklustre", he managed to defend his lead with intelligence and steadfast resolve until the balance of diminishing returns gave him the opportunity to go for it and he went for it. Just going for it is far more inspiring to me, and convincing, than having it fall into your lap at the last gasp.

 

[genjigonzales]

I'm just interested to know what point people are trying to make here, because all these points are equally applicable to every driver on the grid, barring Schumacher and maybe Alonso. Are the people saying he's unproven, suggesting the likes of Hamilton and Button aren't?

The point is (or was) which championships over the years were most convincingly won. I tried to expand the thread into a wider discussion taking in lots of WDCs over the years but you want to focus just on Vettel's. That's fine and I'll give my opinion but I for one am not trying undermine Vettel for being Vettel or to call one WDC less deserving than another. It's about the manner in which they're won, not the winning of them. It's fairly academic and totally subjective and hence shouldn't be taken as denigration of any driver.

 

[Smithers]

Its more heroic/romantic when a driver wins against the odds - most people can buy into that.

When the fastest car just gets better as the season goes on it all feels a bit of a let down regardless of the talent of the driver. All a driver can do is race the car to the best of his ability! I think people moan about Vettle because "some" feel he has had the best car since 2009 which means technically he should be a tripple world champion.

 

[SgtBhaji]

I caught an interview on Sky Sports news the other night with Bernie, he had another of his "ideas" which is to give the new teams at the bottom the title winning car from the previous year and allow them to race them for up to 3 years. Guess we would find out if a championship was driver or car that way.

Please tell me you're having a Steffi Graff!

 

[SgtBhaji]

changed my mind I want yuji Ide & Tarso Marques in a championship winning car driving for El_Bando racing!....

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