I have been castigated many times by the same 3 or 4 Sunderland posters on this board for my opinions on the age old debate of black and whites at Sunderland, either players or managers. Now, I'm not about to change my opinion anytime soon despite the abusive nature of the reaction at times and have indeed hardened my thoughts on this matter in recent months rather than softened them. I am oblivious to the abuse fellas so try and be constructive with replies and as for the bellend craas that will not doubt respond to their masters voice, your opinions are dog **** anyway so fire away. The debate is simple and can be opened up to every single football fan in the world from every club. Would they accept a die hard supporter of your biggest local rivals as a manager or player and would they offer 100% support if that person struggled or erred badly during derby games? Of course we all love success and it breeds success as the saying goes but what about failure? How would that be perceived? For example, how would Celtic fans take to Ally McCoist being their manager and losing all the local games with Rangers? Liverpool fans with Kevin Ratcliffe as manager being beaten 5-1 at Goodison. Man City or Liverpool fans towards Gary Neville being their manager and losing 5-1 at Old Trafford? More to the point, how would Mags take to Gary Rowell managing them to a humiliating 5-1 defeat at Roker or the SOL? I'll tell you, they would chase him round the streets and lynch him from the Tyne Bridge. Compare that to the support Bruce STILL received after that hideous result but then ask why was Bruce then later that day spotted drinking with his b&w mates in Ponteland having a right old laugh. At us. The scenarios are everywhere but we did have that in reality? Bruce was a self confessed mag who came to us and it has to be said was welcomed with open arms and lost all but one derby game and gave us the biggest post war defeat in a derby to boot. This after the team were bombing before and then went on an incredible run right after? When he was sacked he immediately raised the issue of him being a mag as sunderland manager being a factor, not his miserable 12 months results. Coincidence? Lee Clarke came with a lifetime association with his boyhood heroes and yet again we welcomed him with open arms. He repaid that by getting pissed at Wembley watching his true heroes in a cup final, whilst playing for their biggest local rivals (how insensitive and crass was that by the way on its own) and then happily wore a derogatory t-shirt for photos with his geordie mates, against the very fans that had so openly welcomed him. Coincidence? Going back even further, what about Lawrie McMenemy? Came to us as the number one manager in the country with a glowing reputation and the most expensive salary in British football at the time. A self confessed Jackie Milburn fanatic and b&w supporter, he was still given an incredible welcome and euphoric support from SAFC fans and yet inside 2 years we were 3rd division bound. Coincidence? Michael Chopra, the boy who was a fanatic b&w and Alan Shearer worshipper, rejected by his home town club came to us and was AGAIN welcomed open armed by our fans but when push came to shove, in a derby game, he bottled as easy a chance as was possible? Coincidence? These are not coincidences. They are evidential fact that once a mag always a mag. Once a blue never a red. Once a Green hoop never a bluenose. Just as Ally McCoist could NEVER go 100% in a derby game for Celtic against Rangers and Gary Neville could NEVER give it full on for a win against Man Utd, then none of the mags I mention could ever give us 100% in derby games or for our general success. A leopard can never change its spots and a football fan can never change his allegiances. There is a big difference between just playing for a club and then being a boyhood fan. Professionals play for a club for money and without the baggage of support. Sure they become attached to a club over time but they can move to a rival without the baggage involved with actual heartfelt support. For instance, Gianfranco Zola could manager any London club without any baggage. I'd have taken Kevin Keegan as manager after the mags because he was never a fan just a manager and actually ran the GNR in a half red & white and half black & white top before he went to the craas as a player. That's fine. You will have gathered by now that I care very little for the abuse this post will probably receive from some quarters and I wont be altering my stance on this thought one millimetre that mag loving supporters should never again be allowed near our club as players OR managers, as they simply don't work and actually end up having a hugely negative effect imo. Rival fans/players/managers can never successfully be associated with a rival and the mags have NEVER done it and NEVER would. We have several times in the last 30 yearsand EVERY time have been kicked in the testicles. The one exception is STokoe and before the usual hoss ****e is trolled out, that was nearly 40 years ago and in a completely different era and Bob Stokoe was clever enough not to wear derogatory t-shirts, be seen drinking with his mag mates after a humiliating derby defeat and above all had the dignity and grace to appreciate his position.
I agree with not wanting any mags any where near my team again, but I still say Chopra didn't miss that chance on purpose, I've seen better strikers than him miss easier chances than that before loads of times.
My point is that the added pressure being a mag, playing for us is that it gets in the way MoNeill. They can never be fully focused on us when they are concerned about them? Chopra would have scored that 9 times in 10 against anyone else but as it was the mags he fluffed his lines - whether on purpose or not can be argued - but him, Clarke, Bruce and McMenemy all ****ed us over in the end imo. I dont want to see another barcode lover in a red & white shirt ever again, no matter who they are or how good they are. They will never do it for us anyway.
A fair post in many respects, and can see where it's coming from.. Not sure I agree with it all, I think people can make the transition. But I do agree that if you are associated with your greatest rivals then you will feel added pressure when you're against them, and that you will need to be especially careful with your reaction (Clarke the biggest example, but Brucey should probably have thought 'i'll stay at home tonight because I know what it'll look like'.. ) I don't agree that people will ever have thrown/ bottled/ lost things on purpose, but agree that the added pressure could affect their performances. However I don't think we can dismiss the Stokoe example so easily. You say different era, but it shouldn't make a difference - if anything, the fans were closer to the clubs in the good ol' days. Also, can't think of any examples from us immediately, but wasn't Carragher an Evertonian as a boy?
Carragher indeed was a young Evertonian but joined Liverpool aged 12 and has more than 665 games as a Red. He has given his all for Liverpool (including derby games) and is a legend. Is Clark for us? Chopra? Jack Colback is a Killingworth born lad who came to us aged 10. He could well go on to have the same career as Carragher (as a local lad) and I have no problem with that as he has more red & white affiliation than anything b&w. If Colback starts to give interviews telling us all how he slipped away from training at SAFC in his youth to go follow the mags, wearing SMB t-shirts I'd give him the same ****e as I would Clark. Colback is not the same as Clark and remains one of my favourite players (I was shouting about him 3 years ago when I watched him in the reserves). In contrast, I'd love to see Clark suffer insufferable public humiliation for the rest of his natural and see his career plummet. Would give me great pleasure to see Birmingham relegated next season and hear he has lost all his money in a scam investment portfolio.
Yup agreed on Chopra, Clarke and Colback - my point was more the 'a football fan cannot change his allegiances'. In the same way that Carra went on like you mentioned to become a legend as a red despite being a boyhood blue, Chopra could have done the same/Colback can go on to be a legend for us.
I think the post is well considered and thought out. Funnily enough, out of all the examples you give, the 1 that never really bothered/irritated me was Lee Clark. Yes he wore an offensive t/shirt and shouldn't have done it undoubtably. But he was a mag and I was always able to take it as banter. Plus he gave everything for us when he played. The one caveat is how he would have done when we played Newcastle (which well never know)
Clark is a dirty little cowardly back stabbing twat imo and I hope he suffers badly at Birmingham next season. He gave an interview a year or so after he took the piss out of us and said that his head would have been mixed up in a derby and that he was pleased that he didnt have to make that choice. Tells you everything? Professional? My ****ing arse. Bruce, Clark, Chopra and McMoneybags. All b&w's that screwed us over. Never again I say and I fully stick by that assertion. I will never offer my support to a mag we sign or appoint for the rest of my natural, regardless of their achievements.
Depends on the person. Look at Chris Waddle. Good bloke, red and white, did well for the mags. If you take the money, you do your best. If you don't, you're a twat and that has nowt to do with being a mag. Besides, it comes back to bite you in the end. Clark had worked his arse off to win us over and just when he succeeded he chucked it all away. I bet he'd take that day back if he could. As for Bruce, he just wasn't doing the business, but we were giving him everything he could have asked for in terms of cash and control. I don't really think he'd Chuck that away for a derby day laugh. Him and Chops just weren't good enough.
I think the Chopra incident is a load of bollocks. He was at a tight angle, and the ball to Kenwyne was best, but I honestly believe he WANTED to score, delayed, then overhit the pass. His face said it all for me, he was mortified.
Good points Sid, as ever, especially the Waddle story but then during all that time at Newcastle, did he ever give san interview talking about his boyhood affiliations? Did he ever go to Sunderland games to watch us? Did he wear offensive anti Mag clothing? Of course not. He was far too clever for that and realised that he should keep stum. I dare bet only a handful of people knew his real love was red and white becasue he knew the consequences on the terraces wopuld be very harsh. Chopra and Bruce were not good enough but it was their affiliations for newcastle that effected that. Whether inadvertently as some here believe, or on purpose as I do genuinely believe during derby games, my point is that we should never again go down this route as a club as it doestn work and almost always ends in tears for us. If Bruce had won even 1 derby game or come close to it he could have survived the likes of me but we didnt show upo in ANY of them and got roasted in one in particular against not the best side we have faced at the Sports direct either. No more mags (I'm not sayinmg no more geordies) at our club please in future is my stance.
I can't comprehend that you believe that Bruce through the games Cest, it's utter bollocks that. He looked broken after the 5-1, and his celebration of the Gyan equalizer was one of genuine belief. He came up short, but his birthplace played no part for me.
No youre very wrong. He was there as a schoolboy 97-99 (10 to 12 years old), never as a fan. He didnt follow them as a boy at all but they offered better chances at that time than we did and thats a fact. His family are all red and whites and season ticket holders and whatever they say up the road, he aint a mag. He actually has spent more time at Boro (12 years) and probably has a soft spot for them more than the craas. He would be coming 'home' imo and in his families and I would be proud to see him play in a derby game against the filth next season ,no problem.
Johnson stated on live TV that he was a Mag Cest, it's common knowledge that his family is SAFC, but he is a Mag. Clearly he isn't die-hard like Clark was, or even Chopra, which is where the line needs to be. If I was a footballer, and the Mags offered me a deal, it's a great club, and I'd do it, but if I'm clean through in front of the North Stand on 89 mins at 1-1, there'd be no need for the fans to debate, I'd kick the ball out for a throw in and walk off knowing I was finished there.
Everyone entitled to their thoughts mate but as I have repeatedly said, his affiliations with Newcastle played a part in us losing those derby games. He may well have professionally not wanted to lose so he could keep face with us but I am also absolutely convinced he didn't want to win and that negative stance got through to the players. How else do you explain how we were bombing in the league right up to the 5-1 game, got royally humped over there, and then went on an incredible run straight after? Just football? Just a coincindence. Like **** it was. And yes, he looked crestfallen alright because in his attempt not to win against his 'club' but not to lose to keep face with us, had dramatically backfired on him and he knew then the game was well and truly up. He'd been found out and sure enough he had and he knew it would never be the same again. For me it never was and never will. I said when he was appointed that I was very pleased and that his barcode affilations would only come into play in the derbuies and how he handled them I'm sure someone who has the ability can dredge up a post I made syaing exactly this at the time) and sure enough, thiose derby games defined him as a manager in his time here. He wasnt ever one of us really at all but rather remained one of them to the bitter end.
I blame the players, personally, for bottling the big occasion. Only Bardo stood tall, the rest of the team were like rabbits in headlights (bizarrely, we looked excellent till the first goal). The game was too big for a lot of the lads, with the Toon fans buoyed by being back up, I remember the day vividly, and will forever, and the noise was incredible (as always at our games), the players failed us.
And there, in a nutshell, you have made my point exactly mate. Chopra coulldnt do it as a he too was a mag supporter. I have absolutely no doubt that Clark would have done it too as would ANY supporter whether a playing pro or not and that's my exact point. I don't want that to ever be the debate again. Just stay away from Mags as players. PS - talk to people who AJ and know his family. He ain't a mag mate. He played there as a 10 year old and has fond memories and he loved to watch Ginola who was his idol (hell I think he was an absolutely ****ing class player but it doesn't make me a mag). He was brought up surrounded by red and whites but has more of a Boro affiliation than either us or the craas.
