Yet again I see public sector workers, pushed by lefty unions are hurting ordinary members of the general public by taking strike action. When will we see sense and outlaw strikes - which are little better than blackmail. It is always public sector workers who take such action - ironic really as we are their employers and yet they attack us - the public. NUT guy this morning was whingeing about how teachers work 60 hour weeks - did someone forget to tell the school that I live opposite that? I see the teachers arrive between 8.45 and 9.00 and leave soon after 3.15 just after the kids. With an hour for lunch or more that makes hardly a 30 hours week. Do not tell me they do masses of paperwork at home. Also it seems their "mandates" for striking are 2 and 3 years old. That itself is ridiculous. I would like to see what percentage of the teachers actually voted for strike action. I suspect it is less than 20% of the total as normally only about 30% vote and they need a simple majority of those voting to get a mandate. Time to ban strikes and institute mandatory arbitration instead - as they do in many other countries.
Good to see that the ordinary worker still has the freedom to strike for their rights in a modern day democracy....
Don't forget the school holidays they get too. Must amount to about 3 months off. I know they have to do 'homework' - marking, lessons plans etc so some weeks they may do 60 hours, but I think if you average it out of the year then it's nowhere close to that. I have plenty of friends who are teachers and for pretty much 5 of the 6 weeks in the summer they are doing nothing then rush the lesson plan for the new year in the last couple of days - and moan how 'busy' they are and how the rest of us have it lucky I'm a Public Sector worker, so have gone through all the austerity that the government imposed - changes to pension, no cost of living wage increase for a few years etc. I also don't get paid for any overtime, but you just get on with it. I feel lucky to have a job, that pays reasonably well even if it is lower than what I could earn in the Private Sector. If I'm honest though, I think it is the train-driver strikes that frustrate me more
I just wonder 'why' then there is a shortage of teachers.... especially head teachers..... if the job is so good. ( I was a head teacher once too.... ) Most of us on this board are willing to 'fund' professional footballers whose earnings per hour work are many times more. Whose work is more important???
I'm in the same boat and tend to agree with that - the overtime ban did really bite when I was working a lot of weekends but you just have to put up with it. I'm quite supportive of the teachers to be honest even if I don't entirely agree with them striking. They seem to be the new bette noir for the Mail and are now among single mothers, benefit scroungers and illegal immigrants as being almost solely responsible for the current ills of the country.
In the 80s teachers used to be shoe-in Tory voters.... and now , not so....... Of course means the Mail can launch into them.... Sometimes the politics of this country are sick.... I first started teaching in the 70s.... and then it was a great job.. ...with kids at the centre of learning.....
If you're not a teacher and think it's so good, become one. If you are a teacher and think it's so bad, stop being one. Simples.
Sad to read the usual knocking of teachers on here. I spent more than 25 years working in city comprehensive schools (and 15 years working in the private sector). There were of course some lazy teachers but they were a small minority. Most worked hard and did put the hours in, often working weekends and evenings to keep up with marking and preparation, and on the whole received positive feedback from parents and students about the impact they were making. The private sector on the other hand (and I worked with many large companies on national training programmes) seemed populated by folk who spent a large part of their day chatting or on meetings convened out of routine rather than necessity. Many expected annual bonuses, hospitality treats and regular promotions. The truth is it's a gross misrepresentation to categorise either all public or all private sector workers as lazy, inconsiderate and self-serving. Some have genuine grievances, others seem less deserving. Taking away any right to protest leaves governments free to exploit the most vulnerable. Arguing that you should take the pay you're offered or work elsewhere eventually leaves some sectors/professions grossly underfunded and then those who have advocated this move complain about the quality of service being delivered. I don't suppose many will agree with me and it's an attitude I feel I've been confronting all my life. All I can say is, despite the temptation to lump all bankers, lawyers, civil servants etc into homogenous groups, I still try hard to remember there are many dedicated people among them and that elements of the media choose to ignore this.
Democracy is about freedom. Striking is about harming other people who have done nothing to the striker. You would not support ordinary workers hitting people to get their way in a modern democracy so this is a poor argument. Strikes are almost exclusively the preserve of public sector workers - or industries that were public sector. They are outmoded and unnecessary. A modern economy has no place for strikes. Compulsory arbitration should be able to help a fair resolution to whatever problem the striker perceives. What justification can there be for harming other people who have no part to play in the industrial dispute. The days when Unions needed to strike to overcome the likes of wicked mineowners is consigned to history. I agree with A1 when he says if you like a job go for it but if it really does not float your boat do something else. Now there may be a middle ground that arbitration affords which helps to resolve some disputes. Essentially in the private sector if you really did not like your employer you simply had to find another one. It is only because Public Sector works have had pampered hours, holidays and pension for so long that they now object to being made to face the real world. Pay probably is better outside the public sector so if that is what you want go for it. I laugh when people use the Daily Mail as a bete noir to avoid making real arguments. Who cares what the Daily Mail says - it is another journalistic rag so why attack it when others are not citing it or defending it? Keep to the essential points of an argument and make or fail to make a case on its merits alone.
In this instance it is less about "knocking teachers" than complaining about bullying tactics. Striking is a form of bullying and attacks innocent people - that is it's objective as this is supposed to bring pressure on the government. Teachers are supposedly better educated than many others and should see how wrong it is. My snipe at teachers hours was due to the usual claim by NUT members on the news today that teachers work for 60 hours per week. I believe some do - but also know that thousands do not. I will only say more on teachers if it becomes the central part of this - which it is not. It is about quasi-blackmail when arbitration needs to be the solution. It is also about the fact that less than 20% of teachers can hold everyone else to ransom. If we cannot outlaw strikes we should at least ensure a majority of the Union membership has supported them - not the few activists who vote We should all be lobbying the governments to outlaw strikes and replace them with compulsory arbitration.
If only it were that simple.... I am afraid the media and politicians exploit the public sector whenever their unions make a stand for better terms and conditions. There is a crude attempt to divide public opinion.... we the ones who are not striking are morally in the better place than those who are striking, that most of the print media love to exploit The reality is the entire work force should have good terms and conditions and a decent pension etc etc. Unfortunately the divisive social system we have here which is reinforced by the right wing left wing split.... govt vs union etc... is very unhelpful. Incidentally on another thread we talked about how our version of capitalism may contribute to a greater social divide. The strikes we see these days, which are really tokenistic, lets face it, are part of the checks and balances in our society.
We just had a local Herts man from Welwyn die because of the firefighters in a row over pensions. It is hard to feel sorry for these people at times. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...nKBKBPYY1J_avtn6A&sig2=-kHZtMyIvvXuUx54N_sJLA
I'm sure you pair are only doing this to wind me up, so I'm not going to bite - just a couple of small nibbles. I can't speak for other countries, but up here no teacher gets an hour off for lunch. The normal lunch break in schools is 45 minutes - but that's for the children only. For me, at my current school, 15 minutes of that time is spent on canteen supervision and another 15 on playground supervision - leaving 15 minutes 'lunch time'. Similarly, the 15 minute morning playtime break is spent on playground supervision, although admittedly only two days per week. My wife is a nursery teacher and fares even worse. She has two classes a day with a fifteen minute break between the two - that is her designated daily break time. In that time, however, she has to clear up after the morning class & set up for the afternoon one - as well as look after those children whose parents who don't know what a clock is and never turn up on time to collect their offspring... Again I can't comment for other countries, but here we are contracted to do a 'normal' 35 hour week, 25 of which are covered by class contact time with the remainder being done either in school or out, at our own discretion - no compunction to remain in the building unless there are previously agreed Collegiate Working Time tasks to be undertaken. On top of that, unfortunately, there are 'other duties' we are expected to undertake, the duration of which depend on the number of children in your class. One small example is parent reporting/contact. We have to produce twice yearly reports and hold twice yearly interviews. The 'standard' set for production of a report is 60 minutes, and interviews are 15 minutes - for a normal class of 30 children that equates to 75 hours per year. All done in our own time. As for the 'lesson plan for the new year' - do you seriously believe that teachers work off such a thing? Having said all that, I do admit that I am in the anti-strike brigade - they achieve nothing in my experience, and mainly adversely affect the wrong people. I'm much more of a work-to-rule person - would far rather do my 35 hours then down pens, pencils, rulers, chalk...
I dispair with public sector workers striking; the teachers, in this case, at least, know there will be a job for them when they have finished the latest day of in the sun - I notice they never strike when it's cold and wet in the winter. Fortunately for my child, now the exams are over, attendance is not compulsory until next year. If I were to strike I would not be back at work the following day, unless it was to serve a notice period or collect my cards. I appreciate workers need protection but with rights come responsibilities and certainly when you are dealing with our nations future you should not be allowed to muck it up as the teachers unions appear to wish to do. I had a really big argument with my daughter's friend's mother who is the head teacher of a tiny rural primary school about her last strike. She could/would not understand that as a taxpayer I finance both her salary and pension and that is sufficiently draining on my finances I cannot afford a pension that would pay anywhere near what she will recieve. Her understanding was the money came from the government, and she could not see beyond that as to their source of this money.
Fair enough - I think some of us just jumped in on the teaching bit because you used the NUT example and focussed on teachers for some of your post. However, as you say it's about the principle of public sector striking so I agree we should get back on track and stick to that. I wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be changes in the way that strikes are allowed so that they only go ahead if more than 50% (an arbitrary figure here - I don't know what I'd set it at to be honest but let's just say the majority for now) of the membership vote. In the case of the general public sector of course there is probably a much smaller number of union members than in the professions. Personally I don't like strikes as they rarely achieve their aims and just turn public opinion against us. I'd also say that pensions and better hours are not the only reason people join the public sector. In many cases, certainly mine anyway, the jobs we have are interesting and rewarding and there's not necessarily equivalents outside. Although i will certainly have a bit of a moan about changes in my conditions - and surely everyone does - I do accept them as part of the price of living in a rapidly changing age where the old certainties simply don't exist..... Anyway, what would life be if we couldn't all have a rant now and again?! On the Daily Mail point - yes you're right it's an easy soundbite. However, I do get annoyed when an extremely influential shaper of public opinion portrays certain sectors in a way I find unrecognisable. I care because I know there will be lots of people reading it and thinking "well that must be true". It's not the same of course but I think we all took a bit of umbrage when it started telling blatant lies about the way our club was being run.
Ah I feel so sorry for all the poor public sector workers that have to wait just a little bit longer for their Gold Plated Pensions that they get paid from my expense! I am like millions of others, a private sector employee, who has not had a pay rise for 5 years and has little hope of getting a decent pension when I retire at 67! I am earning less now than I was in real terms 5 years ago but I just have to grin and bear it or I lose my job simples! The NUT are just a bunch of lefty militant headbangers who really couldn't give two fooks about the state of education or indeed the hard pressed Tax payers who pay their wages. Perhaps they should spare a thought for the 1000s of single parents who have had to take a day off work today and most probably give up a days pay to stay at home to look after their kids!
1 It is that simple - strikes are a weapon; 2 Apple pie and the American way of life are supposed to be good too; 3 tell tokenism to people who have lost a day's money thanks to stirkers BB - I was expecting a far greater broadside from you. But we agree on strikes. Oh and I would love to see teachers paid double what they are - and for the country to have so many people wanting to be teachers that we could employ only the best and dismiss poor ones. When I was at school teachers had respect and were good - many of the teachers who taught my children could hardly read or write themselves - you pay peanuts you get monkeys. And I also agree that even the rubbish teachers are still often honest and do their best - unfortunately that is rarely good enough Yes - the BBC used the NUT so I did too but it was a distraction To me 50% of membership not of thosse voting would be the minimum criteria - I would prefer two thirds for action that affects others - if it should be allowed at all I have no problem with people wanting to be in the public sector - only on those in it thinking that the cold winds blowing around pensions, pay and hours should pass them by I have no respect for anyone who uses the Daily Mail (and many other comics) to fomr their opinions - fortunately the influence of papers has diminished massively Not sure whether you are totally serious or at least 50% tongue in cheek with all this You passion is so strong it almost seems like you are using sarcasm
Living in a country famed for it's strikes, I believe that many of the reasons that people feel aggrieved are due to changes in the way that life is changing. We have just had a week or ten days of flight controllers being on strike which brought chaos all over Europe. The EU had suggested after a long survey of traffic movements, that instead of boundaries being decided on national ones, Europe should be divided up into blocks depending on the amount of traffic flying through the airspace. To me it seemed to make perfect sense and all of the countries agreed, but this would involve changes for the French workers with relocation or moving to a different job happening, so they just didn't attempt to see the larger picture, but the action closed a number of the regional airports. There is a very long and involved system of negotiation between employers, public and private, over changes to working conditions and pay which really does not work very often. The employers only have so much money they can use for pay, but the very left wing unions refuse to accept that. With a large public sector, every time the government gives into union demands they finish up borrowing more or increasing taxes, which is having the effect of creating a totally stagnant economy. You can have responsible employers and workers who are not, or the other way round, so although negotiation should be a answer there is no certainty it will be.
Well this has proven to be a really divisive thread... I guess the movers and shaker behind the Tory party must be pleased with a day well done.... Divide the working people and carry on creaming off the top.... Striking is a symptom of something.... look at the social and political causes....
