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Relegation Thoughts

Discussion in 'Watford' started by oldfrenchhorn, Jul 26, 2020.

  1. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    I think that over my years of watching Watford I have had to suffer the pain of relegation seven or eight times. So once each decade, which statistically isn’t that bad when you realise that every season three or four teams depending on what division you are in, will go down a division. Sport is all about winners and losers, and it doesn’t matter if it is a team game such as football, or a one against one such as tennis, there will be winners and losers. That is the nature of it and what makes for the excitement. A preseason football game or an exhibition tennis match do not have the same intensity, so a loss can be easily written off.

    This season has been for me one of disappointment, but maybe not for the reason that we turned out to be one of the losers. It was because after the lockdown games were played without the fans. It was all so unreal, and could have been just like watching a computer game as far as I was concerned. In the same way I was disturbed at just what the owners were doing in the constant changing of coaches that they had initially put their faith in.

    Not surprisingly we show concern about how this will have an effect on the financial situation, with players earning large sums, and now with a reduced income, is the business model strong enough to cope? Just look at how sport has been corrupted as it becomes more of a financial operation and more distanced from the fans. Football being used to launder money, rugby paying more than the regulations allow, athletes taking drugs to improve their chances of earning enough to set them up for life.

    As for the fans from the three clubs who have been relegated, will they think their season ticket is still “good value” to watch those players who are not regarded as the top players from around the world? Those who lose faith with their clubs because of a lowering of standard seem to me to be caught up in the money world rather than the world of sport.

    So another six weeks and it will all start again. Which players will want to slog through additional games and possibly earn less for the privilege? It will still be a game to fulfill contractual arrangements rather than feed the excitement of the fans who will not be there, and no doubt some more clubs who have struggled through the years will be lost forever.

    Our coronavirus has had a huge effect on our sport and will do for a lot longer. Maybe it has shown up just how far away from the ideals of honest competitive team against team or individual against individual sport we have moved. After all, company reports show that fans turning up are a very small part of running a successful business.
     
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  2. duggie2000

    duggie2000 Well-Known Member

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    Time to regroup and restructure
    What would be best for us, Pozzos to stay and rebuild or them to sell out to a Billionaire consortium from the near or Far East
    I would prefer the Pozzos
     
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  3. duggie2000

    duggie2000 Well-Known Member

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    Just a thought
    How many of you have posted on here that you enjoyed the Championship more than the Premier League and you hated what the Premier League had become
    At least we will have some proper derby games next year
     
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  4. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    I still watch football of a lower standard than the EPL and get loads of pleasure from it. I suppose I still think of it as game rather than a money making cash cow. I think that the Championship is becoming a copycat of the Premiership, but when promotion doesn't arrive clubs find themselves in bother.
     
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  5. rudebwoy

    rudebwoy Well-Known Member

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    Here in north wales i’m involved with a fan owned club Bangor 1876 , it’s as far removed from corporate football as you can be .The sense of community and engagment is total , the crack is fierce , we can stand where we want , we pay 2/3 pound entry , we can have a beer , it’s what football used to be about at all levels when i first used to go ........
     
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  6. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.. And perhaps build a strong team.. And keep a manager..
    I look forward to seeing :emoticon-0159-musicWatford win away:emoticon-0159-music too.
    Not sure about the Pozzos.. I think they saved us.. And we have had a great run... But how they approach the game leaves a lot to be questioned.. And not really in with the old Watford values...
     
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  7. Chris 13

    Chris 13 Well-Known Member

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    Their community values seem intact. It's their lack of trust in a head coach and more importantly how they measure them daily with men behind the scenes. I know how I would have felt if I kept receiving notes from the stands. Giraldi might as well be the manager the way he behaves and he seems to have the owners complete trust.
     
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  8. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    ...will we ever hear from them as to their take?

    If they were to put their hands up and accept their part....

    The irony is that Dyche who was our manager when we came is still there and has taken Burnley up twice......
     
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  9. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, the Pozzo owned WFC has led the way in supporting the local community by instigating such marvellous assistance to Watford General Hospital.
    Our owners have transformed the Vic into something we can be proud of rather than the embarrassing tip it used to be before their tenure. The match day experience prior to Covid19 is far superior to any time in the past. We should celebrate the success of our Premier league which is able to attract many of the best players in the world and the fact that our teams can compete with the best in Europe. I expect the football loving Pozzos will continue to invest wisely in our club to ensure we are competitive next season.

    The Pozzo / Zola first season in the Championship produced some of the best attacking and most exciting football I have seen at the Vic in over 50 years, including the GT years. There is no reason our club cannot re-energise and be back in the EPL within a couple of years.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
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  10. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    Rich from you who has only posted ONCE in the entire relegation scrap...

    and you rave on about the 'match day experience' and the Premier League being the best...

    Just rhetoric and crafted words... no passion

    How about Barnsley away... or Bury at home etc ... Or winning at Carlisle etc

    Methinks you prefer your prawn sandwiches to your football.... PLASTIC
     
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  11. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    Typical nonsense from you.
    I used to stand in the rain watching Watford hoofing it in the old 4th division. I appreciate the financial stability and vastly improved facilities our excellent present owners have given us. The Pozzos are effective and successful business people who actually love their football, we are extremely lucky they chose our club to invest in. They clearly made a mistake at the start of last season by not investing enough in our defence. All businessmen sometimes make mistakes but that is much better than those that whinge from the stands without ever taking a financial risk in their entire lives.

    I look forward to using my season ticket in a few weeks time with the usual pre season anticipation and hope.
     
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  12. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    Funny you are the only person on here who says I post nonsense... look in the mirror big time.
    At least your post here has a little more genuineness about it.

    1) I for one do NOT measure my passion for football on the 'match day experience' ... peerhaps you would enlighten me as to what that is for you??

    2) And why are you raving on about the Prem being the best when everyone else on here is bemonaing our relegation?

    3) Do you really believe the Pozzos handled the club well this season???

    4) Do you agree with their sacking of coach after coach? Surely that is not good 'business' ??

    5) How much have you invested in the club? That seems to be one of your measures about how good people are
     
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  13. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    It does seem to me that one of the flaws in the Pozzo model has been shown up badly this season, but has been covered up most of the time they have been here. The extensive scouting network is designed to find raw talent, place it in the best setting where it can develop, then sell it on at a great profit. If you look at the transfer market you will always see that the big money goes on forwards, goalscorers, then creative midfielders, and finally defenders with a few exceptions. As the scouts employed by the Pozzos have to justify their wages they will always hope to find the next super goal scorer, but defenders do not have the same value to them. I am afraid that our aging backline has not done us any favours when you look at the goals against figures this season, and there is no sign of them having found a young defender or four that will slot in in the near future.
     
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  14. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    I measure the current match day experience to those in the past at Vicarage Road by the vastly improved facilities, access, seats, view, toilets, pitch and finally players.

    I am sorry we could not stay in the best league in the world but our performances over the season were simply not good enough. Embrace the Championship but obviously seek to rejoin the elites again.

    I have already conceded the Pozzos have made mistakes, we all do sometimes. They will have to live with these and do their best to try to limit the damage to one season at a lower level.

    I have not invested financially in the club which is why I admire those that have the courage and intelligence to do so. There will be the usual meaningless comments from armchair 'experts' who clearly lack any of these attributes.
     
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  15. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    Yes a real concern....

    and worth noting that all the Pozzo clubs have never really kicked on and up.....

    Perhaps the ship em in and sell em out model... is only sustainable at a lower level???
     
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  16. Markthehorn

    Markthehorn Well-Known Member

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    Yes that is the trouble..

    Managers maybe don't trust themselves as they are looking over their shoulders knowing they are being watched.

    And clearly we haven't recruited well enough whilst our injuries have always been an issue.

    I presume at some point we will get a new man and have to prepare for next season but there isn't that long so need to be carefully not to start slowly again.
     
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  17. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    An abhorrent situation..... and that has really raised my concerns about the set up........ If someone is sending notes down and dictating subs..... .then they should do the job.......
     
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  18. F1Hornet

    F1Hornet Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. I was discussing our relegation with a Newcastle supporting friend today. He made the point that with the head coach/DoF model the role of the DoF isn't clearly defined, so it's not clear whose fault it is when things go wrong. The head coach seems to carry the can, and is the one that the hierarchy sacks, but surely the DoF has a big share of the blame for the recruitment. If so, why is he still in a job? Perhaps it's because his objectives, as set out by the Pozzos, are too focused on finding cheap young players who can do well and be sold on at a profit. The likes of Richarlison, Sarr, and hopefully Pedro show he's done well at that, as have our scouting system. But the boring (and probably loss making) work of buying unglamorous defenders, who can do a job immediately, hasn't been done. Ultimately, that's going to cost much more money for the owners. How much of the work of our DoF and scouts is finding players to improve the Watford squad, and how much is just to try and make money from that individual player?
     
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  19. J T Bodbo

    J T Bodbo Well-Known Member

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    Much as I think the Pozzo's have been a good thing , I am moving ever so slightly to the feeling that they did (and do) view WFC as a money-making project, albeit over a long period of time (as distinct say from the hedgefund model of wrecking companies, people's careers, jobs) . The problem is that the EPLis not like La Liga or Seria A (Spain/Italy). Because of the enormous riches, it attracts people with enormous (and sometimes quite dirty) pockets. The Pozzo's are not in that category - (thank goodness). Their model is, as has been said, predicated on unearthing talent, tuning it up,and selling it on, and the EPL has the attraction of being the best (?) shop window for this purpose. I think this is out of necessity as much as desire. It is also quite clever, as it costs less to run, and each Richarlison generates enough cash to run the scouting network for several years. It's just that to make progress, the Richarlison count has to be larger than the scouting model costs and keeping the best talent seems unlikely - so we only get glimpses. (I'm assuming that we knew about richarlison - it wasn't just silva who uncovered him) For all the money raised by selling Richarlison, if had stayed we would definitely be midtable. Pehaps they might try to hang on to Sarr, but it's much more difficult now. One consequence would seem to be that an 'English' head coach doesn't fit their model at all ! However, this is all speculative, (partly as their communications are rather limited - bit disappointing that), and I do recognise the considerable improvements made to the clubs infrastructure. I am not remotely influenced by our spoken meejah (who talk complete b**ll*cks and only have a very narrow view of how football should be run) in all this. The idea that relegation is all the fault of the hire and fire policy rather falls over when Eddie Howe, everybody's darling (at least in the meejah) , is mentioned. In fact 'Muff's relegation rather emphasises the difficulty any club like theirs (i.e. ours) has in maintaining EPL status. The gulf is ludicrous when it's supposed to be a level playing field.
    I've been a hornet since 1959 - my goodness, what a ride. We were spoilt by the EJ /GT era(s) I suppose , but hey ,we've come pretty close again - what's not to like ?
     
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  20. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    Well I'm over the grumps that set in at 3-0 yesterday. Whilst it would have been nice to remain in the Premiership - and for the Pozzos to learn from what we all saw as their mistakes - what happened has been expected since before Gracia was given the boot, so no great surprise. Given what they've done for us since saving the club from the impending disaster that was Bassini, I'd like them to stay and show us that they can tweak their model to good effect - and start that by placing greater value and trust in a Head Coach. It doesn't worry me that so many have left, what worries me is that the majority of those who left very probably should never have been appointed in the first place - just like many of the players signed since they took over.

    So, time to regroup/rebuild - and the unfortunate reality is that, with a break of just six weeks, that work should be starting today - and hopefully is. They previously suggested that their intention was to rebuild the team around Sarr - hopefully they can stick to that plan and not be tempted by offers from the likes of Liverpool. Sadly, too many players need to leave - some whose ability in the Premiership was questionable anyway, some who now may be too old, some who will object to pay cuts and some who may think playing in the Championship is beneath them. Looking at the squad as it is now, rebuilding will be a major task.

    Goalkeeper: Foster staying, Gomes gone, Bachmann about to sign for Kilmarnock according to rumours here - and who knows about Dahlberg? It's not even clear why they signed him in the first place. Probably need two new goalkeepers.

    Defence: Holebas gone; Mapps gone; Kiko possibly leaving for Valencia; who knows what Cathcart has done to fall out of favour but at 31 is past his best,so let him go; Kabasele too error prone, let him go; Janmaat - if he can stay fit, well worth keeping; For me, Dawson and Masina both showed enough to warrant retaining. Probably need five new defenders unless Spencer-Adams can step up.<yikes>

    Midfield: Deulofeu - we'll be lucky if he stays, but we need him; Hughes - future captain material, one we need to hang on to; Capoue - I strongly doubt he would cope in the Championship, far too physical for someone with his temper, so let him leave; Cleverley - for me a very good squad player, so keep; Chalobah - another strange case. On the rare occasions we gelled as a team, he was playing but seemingly fell out of favour - I'd keep him; Doucoure - with any luck his recent poor performances will have put prospective buyers off, so keep him and hope that he finds form again; Pereyra - has he gone yet? Pussetto - never impressed me, nor any of the coaches apparently - let him go; Sarr - a must keep; Pedro - a must keep; Probably three to replace - but we may already have decent replacements such as Quina, Whelan and Dele-Bashiru.

    Forwards: Deeney I would keep if he wants to stay, probably to use as an impact sub; Welbeck I'd keep, if he wants to stay that is; Gray - was he ever here? Get rid; Penaranda - has never grasped the opportunity here or on loan. Get rid: Success - was there ever a more inaptly named player? Get rid; Sinclair - may he never darken our doors again. Get rid; Probably need at least one decent striker along with another two back-ups.

    We have plenty of other youngsters and rumoured-to-be-returning loanees who may step up - Cucho, Suarez, Estupinan, Stuparevic, Hinds and Hungbo to name a few. But who knows what they are capable of? I suspect that, if they were any good, they would have given us a sign by now.

    A big rebuilding job ahead - and we really need a decent manager as a builder - certainly not Giraldi.
     
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