Off Topic Refugee crisis clarified!
- Thread starter canary-dave
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That's not about the refugee crisis though, that's about the state of the Middle East. I'd also say we have stayed out of most of what is happening with Syria, although I don't doubt we have been covertly trying to undermine the Assad government for some time, and that has ended up being in a far worse state than Iraq.
Anyway, I'm of the opinion that you can't try and force a Western-style democracy on backwards Middle-Eastern nations who want to live in the stone age but whatever we do they will end up hating us and trying to blow us up.
Anyway, I'm of the opinion that you can't try and force a Western-style democracy on backwards Middle-Eastern nations who want to live in the stone age but whatever we do they will end up hating us and trying to blow us up.
J
JKCanary
Guest
Inextricably linked.
Very much depends how willing you are to buy into the UK's/Britain's history of involvement, coupled with how far you go back, and to what extent our historical actions have shaped the people of the Middle East.
[QUOTE=Anyway, I'm of the opinion that you can't try and force a Western-style democracy on backwards Middle-Eastern nations who want to live in the stone age but whatever we do they will end up hating us and trying to blow us up
Very true but IS want to force their way of life on the western world, I fear Germany's open door policy is only going to make things worse with IS bound to infiltrate more and more into Europe. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but we should have kept our noses out of Middle Eastern affairs from day one, the only thing the west has achieved is making 99% of the Arab world hate us and want to destroy us IMO.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could all just get along together ? Never, ever going to happen in a million years though is it ?
Very true but IS want to force their way of life on the western world, I fear Germany's open door policy is only going to make things worse with IS bound to infiltrate more and more into Europe. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but we should have kept our noses out of Middle Eastern affairs from day one, the only thing the west has achieved is making 99% of the Arab world hate us and want to destroy us IMO.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could all just get along together ? Never, ever going to happen in a million years though is it ?
Despite the best intentions of the Western nations there is no way that any sort of coalition of non-Muslim powers will be able to sort out the Middle East. The OP does show what a tremendously complicated picture the Foreign Office and their counterparts face. We are also faced with the problem that because of our history in the region there is very little trust or benefit of the doubt given to the UK.
Any efforts to generate peace or create the stability in the region necessary for peace to thrive are being hugely hampered by the Saudi's and Iranian's fighting a proxy war for control of the hearts and minds of the Muslim states.
I honestly don't see how anything can be achieved in the short to medium term when none of the Muslim states appear to be doing anything to sort the problems out. By any measure the Saudis who are pretty much our closest allies in the region have a hugely repressive Government and an appalling human rights record and they bluntly do not seem to give a damn what anyone else thinks as long as they have wads of cash due to the oil sales. It truly beggars belief that Germany is capable of showing more humanity towards thousands of Muslim immigrants and refugees than any Arab nation.
we in the UK and in the West in general can beat ourselves up about both our historic and more recent involvement in the region but until the Arab nations decide that enough is enough no progress will be made. The Saudi's have one of the best equipped armies in the region and the funds available to expand should they choose to but instead they duck the issue and hide behind the West and more specifically the US. Possibley this is because any action on their part would generate a reaction from Iran but possibly because they share more than a little in common with IS - same branch of Islam and similar regressive interpretation of it.
Any efforts to generate peace or create the stability in the region necessary for peace to thrive are being hugely hampered by the Saudi's and Iranian's fighting a proxy war for control of the hearts and minds of the Muslim states.
I honestly don't see how anything can be achieved in the short to medium term when none of the Muslim states appear to be doing anything to sort the problems out. By any measure the Saudis who are pretty much our closest allies in the region have a hugely repressive Government and an appalling human rights record and they bluntly do not seem to give a damn what anyone else thinks as long as they have wads of cash due to the oil sales. It truly beggars belief that Germany is capable of showing more humanity towards thousands of Muslim immigrants and refugees than any Arab nation.
we in the UK and in the West in general can beat ourselves up about both our historic and more recent involvement in the region but until the Arab nations decide that enough is enough no progress will be made. The Saudi's have one of the best equipped armies in the region and the funds available to expand should they choose to but instead they duck the issue and hide behind the West and more specifically the US. Possibley this is because any action on their part would generate a reaction from Iran but possibly because they share more than a little in common with IS - same branch of Islam and similar regressive interpretation of it.
In terms of numbers, Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon etc all have much more burden than Germany. But why it is appropriate for so many to be entering Europe when rich gulf states don't take in any is anybody's guess, although BBC did put up an (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34173139) article trying to explain it and basically it is exactly the same reason that so many people in Europe are reluctant to help.
Bugger me, we can't even get on with each other on this forum for people with a common interest, there's an ice cubes chance in hell of rival skypixie gangs getting on!
Bah!
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I'm very suspicious of the BBC coverage, there are families there but most of the refugee's you see crossing the borders appear to be men in their 20's and 30's.
Merkel has made a massive blunder in my opinion she has totally ignored the Dublin Regulation on asylum and has caused absolute chaos in Southern and Central Europe, compassion aside it's absolutely inexcusable whats been going on, there is no organisation when the Hungarians tried to process people they've been absolutely vilified by other EU nations, there are laws and they should be followed.
Also the Wests involvement in this war funding the New Syrian Army etc is all down to Assad being friendly with the Russians, in regards to the Gulf States Qatar were trying to fund a pipeline through to Turkey, which would have pass through Syria which Assad didn't approve of, so Qatar have basically been bankrolling groups like ISIS.
Sorry, but the Dublin agreement does not work and is very unfair. Why should countries on the fringes of Europe, like Greece, Italy and Spain be expected to cope with this problem alone simply by virtue of their geographical location. If refugees are coming into Europe then that is a 'European' problem - and the wealthier nations cannot hide behind these so called Dublin agreements etc. by saying that refugees must always be processed only in the lands which they first arrive in. Hungary has been IMO quite rightly vilified. Any country which can officially say that they are prepared to accept refugees only if they are Christian is in contravention of basic human rights (and should not be in the EU) - Germany and Austria took an emergency action which was perfectly justified, and necessary, in these circumstances.
Hungary has every right to try to keep its borders closed to illegal immigrants. It bussed them on to Austria anyway, so what exactly have they done wrong? The majority of people from Hungary are opposed to immigration so what is a government to do; go against the will of its people? Just because people don't share the same opinion as you doesn't mean they are wrong. How would you feel if people turned up uninvited in your house?
Ok. but how can a country where the majority of people are against immigration be in the EU using the advantages which that brings ?
J
JKCanary
Guest
As much as it pains me to say this, there is a distinction to be made between 'refugees' and 'economic migrants'. If playing by the book, refugees should make their way to the nearest 'safe' country (for Syrians, this could be Turkey) and turn themselves in. They should not technically then decide to make their way to Austria/Germany/Scandinavia. By leaving Turkey (unlawfully), and attempting to enter Bulgaria/ Romania/Greece and then Hungary, they are no longer technically 'refugees', but 'economic migrants'.
I appreciate the Syrians (and others) are experiencing hardships that I can barely begin to imagine, but Hungary don't HAVE to take any 'economic migrants'.
As long as these are the rules, we should support the 'safe', bordering countries financially and logistically as much as we can.
Turkey already has over a million refugees. Greece does not have the resources, and none of the other Balkan countries have the inclination to be helpfull to refugees (if Hungary is to be taken as a typical case) most of them are only safe on paper. Surely a refugee has the right to claim asylum in a country where his claim has some chance of success ie. Austria or Germany.
J
JKCanary
Guest
By the book, they do not have such a right. They have to turn themselves in at the first 'safe' country they come to, be that Turkey, Lebanon, or (if by boat) Italy, Spain, Greece etc.
For the record, I'm not defending the current rules. They need addressing and changing. For the moment though, they are the rules that mean Hungary doesn't have to let them in from Romania/Serbia/Croatia/Ukraine etc.
It shouldn't be a European problem, the US and Gulf States should help as it's more their problem. It might be unfair but it's the law though. What's happening at the moment is a security risk, we have absolutely no idea of the numbers and it's caused absolute chaos. The main problem with the migration crisis is everybody has been reactive rather then proactive there should of been more camps set up to receive these people in the region itself.
None of this would of happened if the US and EU meddled in other peoples business, as I said in my previous post it's down to the West's relationship with Russia and gas pipelines, since Gazprom provide the majority of Europe's gas and the expansionist federal attitude of some EU states caused the instability Ukraine, I imagine they thought this was going to be another proxy war but it's got severely out of hand.