http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91893 Pirelli agree with me as well, we were effectively robbed of a great finale because Seb got the chance to stick on some options. It should be banned very soon hopefully.... please log in to view this image
We were already robbed of the finale because of the crash, not because of the red flag and tyre change.
Even with the red flag. It could still have been a great finish. Vettel was due to fall of the cliff one or two laps after the red flag. This could still have happened after the restart (although the saftey car would have delayed it). Had Vettel managed to hold on or Button or Alonso pass him i would have felt that the winner deserved it. As it was it got handed to Vettel.
That safety car would of finished the race before they sorted out Petrov. How long was it stopped for? 10-20 minutes?
The issue isn't about the safety car vs. the red flag. It's about being allowed to put on new tyres (i.e. preventing the tyre strategy from playing following the restart) under a red flag.
Thats not what PMC is saying. He's saying we were robbed of a classic because of the new options on vettel's tyres. I'm saying it wasn't and it was the crash that ruined it. I know what he's trying to get across, I'm just being more detailed into the argument. Yes I agree the tyre rule should be scrapped in future, but we weren't robbed of a classic because of it, if anything the last 6 laps wouldn't of happed if the safety car was allowed to keep going around etc...
Yeah but if he wasn't allowed to change tires under the red flag (and the race had still been stopped) the last laps after the restart could still have been exciting.
Yes, because under the rules they are allowed to fit new tyres under a red flag. If the crash hadn't happened, the race wouldn't've been red flagged and that rule wouldn't've come into play. But if that rule (allowing tyres to be changed) is removed and this situation (red flagging the race just as one of the driver's tyres are about to fall off the cliff) arises again then we'll still get the exciting finale to the race that we would've got if the race wasn't red-flagged. The safety car doesn't really come into the argument because the race was red-flagged due to the crash.
If you cant change tyres in the future, bodywork should be the same and you can force drivers to retire.
He would and, as I've said elsewhere, I think that should have been the case anyway. I don't think he should have been permitted to make repairs to his rear wing under a red flag. Under circumstances like yesterday, where the red flag is used because the circuit is blocked, I think the cars should have to restart in the same condition they were in when the race was suspended. I think that cars should only be overhauled if the race has to be split into two legs, with aggregate times deciding the finishing order.
Bodywork should be allowed IMO. Imagine if at the Finale Vettel had Rear Wing damage he got from lapping backmarkers and just before he got the Black and Orange flag a red flag came out??? And he was fighting with Lewis for the title and they were level on points and he was first Lewis second only 1 second apart. Let them change the wing or let him lose the title and have another Lewis-esq outburst saying that the FIA hate Germans????
But then again we get to that problem of about safety. What would of happend if all 3 front runners crashed because of grip, then having 2-3 more joining them, injuring the drivers. Then we would be complaining about Red Flag restarts are insane and we need to review it, yack yack yack....
Its none or both for me. Either parc ferme conditions or everything should change. imo it should be parc ferme conditions.
They wouldn't crash because of the lack of grip. They'd crash because they drove beyond the level of grip they have. The restart after a red flag is behind a safety car, remember. Once the safety car pulls off, if they drive beyond their or the car's capacity that's no different to doing the same thing halfway through the race. Regarding bodywork, PMC, if the car's not safe it should be wheeled from the grid to the pits to be worked on upon restart - if the race is suspended then it should be held in a state of suspension until it is restarted. But, like you say, it's just an opinion.
Let me bring this up as a question now.... Did you really care about Red Flag conditions before? They did the same thing in Malaysia 09 with Jenson, having the option to change tyres but nobody complained? But when Vettel wins with a gamble we all suddenly have to change it because it's seen as unfair? @genji Yes but you get the point I'm getting across, 2nd wants to beat 1st at the final stages yet he will defend to the death since it's Monaco, we will never know what would've happend if they kept the same tyres. Somebody else might of taken the victory except the other 3, then what we would be saying?
No not because it was unfair but because we were robbed of a classic based on the two cars behind him before the Red Flag.
tbh I change my mind regarding the tyres... Why should vettel become a sitting duck from the cars behind 3rd all because a Red Flag bunched them up. It's from different points of view that you think the "classic" would of carried on if they had to keep their tyres, I think all 3 of them would of been done over by the cars behind if they didn't change the tyres for those 6 laps. I think we're getting too picky at the rules and we can drone on for hours bitching about them and forever be biased when a certain driver gets screwed out of a win. If the Red Flag rules have to be changed so do the safety car rules because I've always found it unfair that the time they made for 30 laps is gone in an instant because of a crash.
It's not unfair, SilverArrow - it's within the rules. It's just that many of us and some of the drivers were not aware that tyres could be changed. In the past it hasn't been an issue because tyre degradation wasn't an issue. Also - I could be wrong but - I doubt Vettel staying out on his old tyres was a gamble on the race being red-flagged and him being given a free set of options. Malaysia was a different scenario entirely because of the weather. So no, I didn't really care about the red flag rules before because I wasn't aware they were allowed to change tyres, except to go to full wets if the conditions demanded it. We don't know what would have happened had the crash and red flag not occurred. Personally I don't believe Monaco means as much to Vettel as he agreed with interviewers that it meant. Like Alonso, Vettel is a championship machine and 17 points in Monaco is better for him than zero points, so I don't believe he would have defended to the death (as it were). If Vettel's tyres had fallen off the cliff (and, as an aside, has it occurred to anyone that the red flag saved Pirelli from its tyres not going off? It's something we've been promised and we all want to see it but, fortunately for Pirelli, it didn't not happen) then I don't think he'd've had any answer to Alonso and Button because traction out of the corners would have been so poor. He wouldn't have had any defence, Monaco or not. If he had defended successfully on rotten tyres then it still would have been a much more satisfying ending for us. As it was they might as well have driven the last six laps behind the safety car. It's not the be all and end all, you understand. It only affected the end of what was otherwise an exceptionally exciting Monaco GP. I just happen to agree with Paul Hembery, that's all. It also has nothing to do with it being Vettel. It's not about Vettel and I said last night that he got himself into the right position to take advantage of the luck that came his way. To me it's just about a flaw in the rules that prevents racing/competition instead of encouraging it. It's surprising nobody's come up with the alternative view, which is - what if Alonso and Button had got past Vettel just before the red flag and the fresh options gave Vettel the chance to fight back against them driving off into the distance, making for an even more exciting ending?
Well funnily enough genji with about 12-16 laps to go I was pritty much begging vettel to pit for the options so he could catch them up towards the end, not just try and "park the bus" senna style. On another note added on: I agree with what your saying genji, it's just so many senarios could happen with not changing the tyres. The rule must of been placed so the leader gets the benefit of the doubt that he was meant to win so he should be given the maximum chance to keep that lead at the restart. So many bad races could occur with having the likes of lower teams getting a chance to overtake top drivers without merit, all because they pitted before the red flag while the top flight up front were pritty much maintaining their tyres for the end are now going to get shafted.
IMO there should be one red flag rule for the dry, and another for the wet. The current rule makes a lot of sense for the wet, but none in the dry.
