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Red Bull. should they stay or should they go?

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by dhel, Oct 12, 2015.

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Red Bull

  1. Red bull stay

    33.3%
  2. Red bull go

    66.7%
  1. dhel

    dhel Well-Known Member

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    Oh and by the way the Horner who is now saying everybody including Mercedes are scared to give them an engine for fear Red Bull will beat them... well Horner should go back in time and remember when he was pushing and tried everything to get the same Mercedes excluded (thrown out) when there was the tyre testing matter. The same Horner who was constantly bashing the other teams...now he is surprised and crying because no one wants to help him now? The cuss off the engine manufacturer that gave them four straight titles..what does he expect.
     
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  2. taeleon

    taeleon Well-Known Member

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    My thoughts exactly. RBR slanders every other team in the sport, destroys their relationship with their current supplier and then cry and guilt trip about no one helping poor old Red Bull out. Good riddance.
     
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  3. Max Whiplash

    Max Whiplash Well-Known Member

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    And now Newey has joined in:
    The emphasis is mine: just who is forcing them exactly? Their mess is entirely self-inflicted, as far as I'm concerned. There just seems to be a total lack of self-awareness from all the top brass at Red Bull and they persistently refuse to acknowledge what is obvious to everyone else.
     
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  4. EternalMSC

    EternalMSC Well-Known Member

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    No wonder Seb bailed. Maybe it was more than the fact that Danny was beating him.
     
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  5. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

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    The more time passes the more it looks like Seb used the poor engine and change in technology to allow Danny to beat him so he could trigger his performance break clause.
     
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  6. cosicave

    cosicave Well-Known Member

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    Get rid of F1's secondary cancer sooner rather than later.

    I've never made any secret of my opinion about a global drinks company which decided upon splashing its over-sized footprints through F1's already muddied waters. And right back then, I said it was always going to be a matter of 'when' rather than 'if' this exploitative and opportunistic interloper would vanish with its booty.

    Right from the start, a company which has nothing to do with motor-sport, set about forcing favourable terms for itself where (in my opinion) none were ever justified.
    Right from the start, Red Bull set about out-Ferrari-ing Ferrari. Both teams still hold a hugely disproportionate financial advantage but only one of them can have a true claim on (Ferrari invented) 'historic status'. How on earth can Red Bull have a greater claim to this than Williams, for instance? Or even Lotus?!
    Right from the start, Horner and his Helmut staked out their corner for advantageous terms and whinged and whined and called 'cheat' at every opportunity unless their team was benefitting (as was often the case).

    I've never made a secret of hoping that Red Bull go sooner rather than later. If F1 suffers in the short term, so be it. Perhaps it will initiate the longer-term thinking at the top of its dictatorial pyramid which will make it a fairer arena for competitive sport, for the benefit of everyone in the long-term (even Ferrari, who I sincerely believe are fully committed – so much so that I believe the team will remain even if (when?) its privileges are finally withdrawn).

    I echo the sentiment of taeleon: Good riddance to Red Bull. With its cheap imitation of Ferrari's (far more justified) business model, all it's done is prolong F1's ill-health.

    I want a full grid as much as anyone. Indeed I'd like to see it up at 24 or 26; but for now, let's get down to 18 teams as quickly as possible. Then the playing field will be slightly less skewed and the whole thing becomes a more attractive proposition to those interested in sport instead of their own glamourous advert. And a resplendent phoenix will get a real chance to rise.

    Having said all that, one cannot blame Deitrich Mateschitz. He is after all a businessman whose primary drive is his only drive: profit for his brand. But good riddance to Marko, Horner et al: they have perpetuated this unhealthy thing so effectively that it now stands held to ransom by its own cancer.

    Good riddance Helmut and your mouthpiece. Suddenly your corner is looking rather lonely isn't it?…
     
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  7. Max Whiplash

    Max Whiplash Well-Known Member

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    <laugh> Hey, Cosi, why don't you tell us what you really think?! <laugh>

    Anyway, I concur.
     
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  8. Smithers

    Smithers Well-Known Member
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    I think everyone should be careful what they wish for. I agree with a lot of peoples view on RB (not all) but if they go taking both teams, there is also the prospect of Renault not buying into Lotus, Manor not fulfilling another season and the potential for A another to be financially unviable - Sauber & FI are not shaking the tree for nothing. This is before Honda potentially make a knee-jerk decision.

    Managing change is a slow process but this has the potential to happen very quickly.

    I believe the engine supply discussion and Red Bull, whilst linked are two separate issues but stem from the same fundamental problem in F1 - Financial distribution and over restrictive regulations that often increase cost rather the reduce it as was their purpose.

    I mentioned previously, it wasn't so long ago that McLaren/Mercedes/Whitmarsh kept the Brawn team on the grid which ironically puts Merc where they are today. If Honda continue to fail or leave, would Mercedes & Ferrari refuse a McLaren request - hypothetical I know but plausible?
     
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    Last edited: Oct 13, 2015
  9. fevriul

    fevriul Well-Known Member

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    How about RB design their own engine?
     
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  10. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

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    Time. If you look at Honda you can see how much time it actually takes to develop a competitive engine. I would love to see Red Bull design and build their own engine, then they could show Renault how it's done!!!! Problem is while they spend 3 years developing an engine that might not meet the regs, depending on how much they change in 2017, they don't have an engine at all if you listen to Horner. I think they will patch up their relationship with Renault with the existing 2 year deal while they develop their own engine/Power Unit and hope VW/Audi etc will be in a position to try and rebuild their reputation and gain publicity and enter F1.
     
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  11. El_Bando

    El_Bando Can't remember, where was I?
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    As mentioned in another thread. I wonder what has come from there Ilmore partnership. A Renault, Merc or Ferrari deal they are looking for is only short term so what are they planning probably for 2017?
     
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  12. Smithers

    Smithers Well-Known Member
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    The inherent problem with designing your own engine is the inability to test and improve. I think a RB type team could financially do it, they would just need unlimited testing.
     
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  13. cosicave

    cosicave Well-Known Member

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    I cannot envisage Red Bull – a drinks manufacturer and marketing entity – becoming an engineering company capable of building engines and power units. If this ever were to happen, it would unravel my long-standing argument questioning the team's commitment to F1; and I'll probably put myself to the sword before being mobbed on the internet!
    :)

    P.S. addressed to Smithers: you've presented your case very well. I agree with you that Red Bull and its power supply predicament are essentially the result of F1's financial inequality. However, I think that makes it all the more ironic since Red Bull deliberately set about perpetuating it! Not surprisingly then, there is considerable resentment within the paddock. Few (if any?) other entities – save those directly associated with the young drivers' programme and Red Bull's current driver line-up – have much sympathy.

    My belief is that 'little Red Bully, Ferrari's understudy' is trying to hold out for some gift from the gods (from a direct competitor) and seeking coercive support from F1's benevolent (to them) dictatorship with the aim of holding others – who put the work in to overcome financial disparity within what was once a sport – to ransom. In simple terms, Red Bull is attempting to threaten others into supplying them with the toys they demand for Christmas. The
    Red Bull F1 entity is akin to a spoilt brat attempting to manipulate its own parents. And why not? Such tactics have borne fruit in the past…
     
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  14. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

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    In this day and age they would just set a company called 'RB Engines'. That way they can test and develop the engine to their hearts delight till they have to homologate, as before that point they are not 'in F1', well something like that for a new engine supplier.
     
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  15. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

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    What is the betting RB will run Renault Power Units in 2016&17 and Bernie will persuade Renault by giving them their Historic payments (that are in my opinion more deserved than RB 'historic' payments).
     
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  16. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    Red Bull are only in F1 for marketing purposes, and they can only achieve that aim by being at the top. So its no surprise that they'll threaten to leave when they find themselves in a sport they've no chance of winning without aa rival handing them their advantage.

    It feels like its been a team decision to throw Renault under the bus, nobody within Red Bull stood up for them publicly. And I can't believe you make that decision without thinking through to the logical conclusion that they would end up begging a very reluctant Ferrari or Mercedes for an engine.

    I think they knew as soon as F1 became an engine rather than aero dominated series that they'd struggle if Renault's engine wasn't good enough. Even with the 2017 changes, engines will likely still be king. So its probably at least another 5 seasons of being also rans before Red Bull stand a chance of dominating again. That doesn't suit them, so they want the deck stacked in their favour any way they can, and they have a strong hand by owning two teams.

    Is there no agreement that ties teams for entering for more seasons to come? Or was that part of the lapsed Concorde agreement?

    I see no way that Bernie can convince Mercedes or Ferrari to supply Red Bull with engine parity. Money is irrelevant given the sunk cost of engine development, and there can't be much else on offer that the other suppliers wouldn't kick up a stink over. Red Bull would rather withdraw than have Renault engines, and arguably paying Red Bull to settle won't work either, it'll still be costing them loads more to stay in the midfield, which doesn't get them the coverage they want.

    Red Bull could contract someone like Cosworth to build them an engine, but that would need a contract for about 10 years, with no benefits short term.

    The only end game I see is a Red Bull withdrawal. And I wonder if that's why Renault are dragging their heels buying Renault - Red Bull's Milton Keynes base probably has better facilities that might shortly be on the market at a knock down rate.
     
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  17. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

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    I believe at least the 'top 5' teams signed a contract to stay till 2020. I think in Red Bulls case if they don't compete they have to pay Bernie $100 million per year they don't compete!!!!!!!!!! So in theory the cost of RB quitting is $500 Million!

    But as Bernie says if a contract is written I will find a way out!
     
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  18. u408379965

    u408379965 Well-Known Member

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    I love the picture in that article <laugh>. Gonna have to do a Men in Black photoshop of it later.
     
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  19. u408379965

    u408379965 Well-Known Member

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    I was just thinking the same thing. Renault aren't going to put their engine in the back of a Red Bull branded car again, the only way the next Red Bull design is going to be running next season is if it's branded Renault.
     
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  20. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    I know Lotus are at the Enstone site and were historically Renault, but the Red Bull staff and facilities will be much better these days. If Red Bull go off in a huff that site will definitely be for sale.

    Could Ferrari be tempted to buy Toro Rosso too?
     
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