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Off Topic TV, Entertainment and Arts thread

Discussion in 'Charlton' started by User deleted as requested, Oct 8, 2018.

  1. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    There's an interesting-looking documentary on BBC tonight, Subnormal, which will make uncomfortable viewing for many, and will be dismissed as Woke by some. But it should be worth sitting through, because these attitudes still prevail in some quarters. I was listening to a black mathematician being interviewed by Jim Al-Khalili's Science program on Radio 4. When his son was asked by a teacher what he wanted to be when he grew up he said he also wanted to be a mathematician. The teacher told him he would never be a mathematician, and advised him to try and become a singer. I'm sure the teacher meant well, but you don't have to be Einstein to see why he said it. Subnormal goes back to the beginnings of these attitudes in education.
     
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  2. lardiman

    lardiman The truth is out there
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    I've heard about this programme.
    The 'woke' factor may only come into play if too much hindsight is applied to the approach of the presentation.

    Doubtless some shocking facts will be revealed.
    And all fair minded folk should agree that these revelations are shocking, and would be totally unacceptable today.
    What some people have a problem with I think, is the notion - that is probably most prevalent among the young woke folk of today - that anybody who was not equally shocked and offended at the time these bad things were happening, must be an ignorant and intentional racist.

    As though today's woke attitudes are a natural perspective that should have prevailed throughout history.
    And that anybody who did not hold those woke beliefs back then was a heartless exploiter and/or bigot.

    History is there to be learned from.
    But in many cases not there to pass judgment on by today's standards.
     
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  3. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Just as a matter of interest, Lardy, how do you know all about these wokefolk? I read about them from right-wing commentators,but have never actually met one, and I know quite a lot of younger people through my kids. It is genuinely difficult for them to comprehend why it was OK to see signs No Dogs No Blacks No Irish on digs. My only answer is that's just the way it was, to take one example.
     
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  4. Ubedizzy

    Ubedizzy Well-Known Member

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    Yet again spot on Lardy. Are you my long lost twin by any chance ?

    The inability to understand that things were simply different in the past is one that constantly causes issues in todays more woke world.

    It doesn't mean that certain attitudes were not wrong, it just means that at the time they were perceived by the vast majority to be right. It doesn't just apply to race it applies to many things - law, procedures, safety, education, design etc etc etc. We learn as we go along and can only hope that we as a society improve as we learn. I think in many cases that is happening, but you can't go back and judge people in history by the knowledge and standards of today.
     
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  5. Ubedizzy

    Ubedizzy Well-Known Member

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    On the face of it one could perceive the teachers comments as wrong, which you seem to be doing, but are they ? Do we know enough about this situation to be able to comment.

    Personally I don't think I do.

    It's too easy to pre-judge these things and become offended if you want to.

    You say "you don't have to be Einstein to see why he said it" but you don't know why he said it and until you do you can't judge. Perhaps the kid was simply not very good at Maths but had a good singing voice. That is perfectly plausible, so why is it obvious to you why he said it ? I'm not criticising or questioning your views but it may have actually been well meant and excellent advice. The modern way of presuming offence in everything is really unhelpful and rather than heal division it just creates more.

    When I was at school and was asked what I wanted to be when I grew up I always replied that I wanted to be a jockey. When I didn't receive any encouragement or help, I didn't take offence or presume that it was because I wasn't Irish, or too tall, or too fat etc etc I just got on with it without feeling hurt.
     
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  6. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    My view is that it's simply wrong for a teacher to say that to a young child who has a bit of ambition about him. How on earth does a young child know how life will turn out? Einstein was dyslexic, you can't tell. In this case his father did not take offense, rather set about proving, as his son's role model, that it would be possible to be a successful mathematician in order to counter the negativity from the teacher. The fact that his father, a mathematician believed in him enough to encourage him down this path tells me that it was not sensible or positive advice. TBF I think there are very few teachers who would say anything like this, I admire them greatly as a profession, and my experience in running the primary school chess club for 4 years when my son was there confirmed that view.
     
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  7. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Another scandal waiting to be exposed concerns concussion in rugby. There is an excellent 30-minute documentary about it on the BBC website. The scandal is how long the knowledge and medical advice was covered up.
     
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  8. lardiman

    lardiman The truth is out there
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    This is going to have to be faced one day. In Rugby and in Association Football.

    Heading the ball over and over again causes cumulative brain damage.
    The only variable is how much damage. In some people not enough to register. In others a devastating amount.
    And many levels in-between.

    Of course it was worse in the old days with the heavier footballs.
    But it is still a problem today.

    I don't think heading the ball can be removed from the game.
    But I do think serious research should be done into protective headgear.
    It may take time to get used to, but if it saves people from dementia it must be worth investigating.
    And the visual aspect of it could be minimised. Clear materials of some kind for instance. Some kind of cushioning silicone presumably.
    Something akin to a minimalist cycling helmet.

    Such things - once the design is perfected - should be cheap enough to buy so that everyone who plays football can afford to use them, right down to Sunday park game level.

    This would also prevent severe injuries (or at least minimise the injury) when players accidentally clash heads.
     
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  9. lardiman

    lardiman The truth is out there
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    In answer to the earlier query, I don't think I've ever met a woke person while knowing that's what they were.

    There must be a lot of them about though, especially in Greater London.
    They played a big part in Sadiq Khan re-elected.
     
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  10. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    I voted for him.
     
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  11. Ubedizzy

    Ubedizzy Well-Known Member

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    My worry remains though Penguin, that you (and probably lots of others in similar cases) have only highlighted this incident because the mathematician and his son were black.

    I'm sure this is a very standard question that actually gets asked of most youngsters at some point. It certainly was to me on many occasions and I was never encouraged to pursue my then ambition. But (and correct me if I'm wrong) you seemed to be implying that the answer in this case was somehow related to their race, when in fact there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that it was. As I say, it may just have been good advice based on what the teacher had learned about the boys skills. And therein lies the problem with wokeness. We can all find offence and hidden meaning in perfectly innocent situations and this is happening more and more and it creates division rather than healing it.

    Of course, in cases when race (or any other irrelevant factor) are used to justify an unfair comment or action then they should be called out and if appropriate, action taken to educate/and or punish.
     
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  12. Ubedizzy

    Ubedizzy Well-Known Member

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    My youngest son who is now 18 played competitive football from the age of 6 to 15. In all that time he refused to head the ball during matches. This started well before the current highlighting of the issue. I'm sure his team mates and his coaches were frustrated, but to be fair to all of them, not once did anyone complain or try to force him to head the ball during a match. How wise beyond his years he obviously was.

    In contrast, one of the lads, again from the age of 6 to18 would happily head anything. High goal kicks from the opposing keeper, attacking headers direct from corners, defensive headers from their corners, everything. And he was bloody good at it. No fear and he scored many goals from headers and cut out the goal kicks from the opposing keepers.

    I really do fear for this lad in later life. It is not worth it for a game of football. Now we know the risks it needs to be banned from youth football.

    And I think this is a good example of the debate about judging things in history. It's easy to say at this point that a ban would ruin the game etc etc, but if we look back in 10/15/20 years time we will all be saying "why on earth did they not ban heading in youth football, what was wrong with them all, why didn't they protect these children ? "
     
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  13. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    You are right, I was implying that it was related to race. Of course being Woke I may have drawn the wrong conclusion, but it would be fairly typical of many other incidents where for instance a black professor giving a lecture at Edinburgh was assumed to be a casual worker. I don't see it as being about taking offense (I never do), just listening to other people's experiences. I haven't watched the documentary yet, preferring to watch the last episode of Innocent.
     
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  14. Ubedizzy

    Ubedizzy Well-Known Member

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    Or the black lawyer presumed to be a defendant. Those cases are more clear cut and should be called out, but I would suggest that the mathematician example, rather than being typical of many other incidents (of racism) was actually just typical of a teacher asking a pupil a question and giving advice, which must happen thousands of times each year without most people taking offence. There’s certainly no evidence to the contrary.

    My only real point is that by taking offence or highlighting without having any sort of evidence leads to division and recrimination when we should all be doing the opposite. I think it is a real concern in modern society that this is spreading.

    We are all just people, we shouldn’t be defined as black, white, gay, straight, Muslim, Jew etc etc
     
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  15. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely.<ok>
     
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  16. lardiman

    lardiman The truth is out there
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    <nahnah> The Eurovision Song Contest <diva>

    About 5 hours of absolute garbage. I flicked channels a few times intending to watch the voting, but at about 10:45pm they still hadn't started as far as I could tell. Then finally the first of 39 countries gives its votes, and the UK entry gets nothing.
    At that point I tuned out again, confident that we were going to finish last, and maybe just get a couple of points from Malta (for old times sake).
    And when I woke up this morning what do I find?

    We did finish last <doh>

    And we didn't even get a point off Malta :emoticon-0172-mooni we finished on nil pwan.

    Now I know this whole thing is a big joke.
    Nobody in their right mind takes it seriously.
    But that poor bloke and his song surely deserved more than no points at all.

    Never has a competition supposedly about bringing people together through music been so riven with political snidiness and bile, and actually saturated with awful tunes that you'd take the stairs to avoid being trapped in a lift with.
    The last truly entertaining moment was when that bearded woman won it - and that was about a decade ago.
    Terry Wogan was right when he gave up on it in disgust.

    Next year, if we have to cover it at all, can we let Steve Coogan present the show as Alan Partridge?
     
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  17. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Haven't watched it since Terry Wogan packed it in. His whimsical cynicism made it watchable. Going further back, Kent Walton was a wrestling commentator, whose commentary was so good it made you suspend disbelief in what you were watching.
    Alan Partridge is a good suggestion, maybe Basil Fawlty?
     
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  18. Miketyson2007isback

    Miketyson2007isback Active Member

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    Graham Norton is great on the commentary ..love it
     
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  19. Butterfield

    Butterfield Well-Known Member

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  20. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    A2C will be interested to know there is a new book coming ahrt, A Field Guide to Mudlarking, by Lara Maiklem. There have been several books on the topic over the last year or two, maybe because of lockdown, but so far none by the great man himself.
     
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