Can someone please explain to me and other sceptics in what way exactly we are progressing as a club under Hughton? We are now 20 games into the season, which is surely enough to average out determining factors. We have fewer points than in either of the previous two seasons, fewer goals scored, and more goals against. In what invisible way are we progressing? I'll accept we have better individual players and that CH has done an excellent job of bringing in talent. But in what way as a team and a club are we progressing?
it's called evolution and it takes many different forms, the example I gave before is that under Fergie's regime at utd, performances and points accumulated were substandard. but the network, training, scouting, youth team development etc were all continuing apace. Most of this is also true at Norwich, and the management at Utd supported it, because there were long term aims and ambitions. I guess if you draw a graph (depending on your starting point) most elements are improving, i.e. there is a general upward trajectory, tending towards a flat line now NB: it is not about CH so much as the whole management at the club. CH has played an important role in the development of Norwich city, by keeping us up last season and if it happens again that is a massive achievement. The question is what really is the next step, because behind the scenes we are turning into a club with all the trappings of a PL team.
But everything you say requires an act of faith. Training, scouting, etc. How do we know? And how much of that would have happened anyway? How do we know the youth team wouldn't have won the Youth Cup anyway? You Hughton supporters are effectively just saying 'Trust us. Things are getting better. Even though we have fewer points, score fewer goals, concede more goals, are increasingly painful to watch. Trust us. It will all come right in the end.' I gave up religion long ago.
Yes of course it could have happened without CH! but some of it has happened with him. I'm not saying trust CH and keep the faith, you can believe whatever you want to, I'm just voicing the opinion that the club is evolving, CH has been part of that. I'm not sure what you want to know and to be honest this is already a pointless debate.
Yes, I guess so, and I'm sorry I started it really. It does all come down to faith in the end, however much some people try to bolster their logic with statistics. You either believe he is taking us forward or you believe he is taking us backwards. But there is one fact. He has had 18 months and 3 transfer windows (soon to be 4). At some point, surely, we are allowed to expect some kind of return?
I suppose I see a better squad as massive progress, but in terms of where Norwich finish in the PL, I find it impossible to see us as anymore than a bottom half team, because every other team progresses at a comparable or greater rate and most have a higher starting point. I don't think CH is a wonderful manager, i find it difficult to imagine who we could get as better because we will only ever be attractive to a rather small group of good managers
If you take the two Liverpool,two Manchester and three big London clubs out then there are only three top half places left for thirteen sides.
That is true, of course. But is that a reason for defeatism, being grateful for coming 17th playing dull, uninspiring football?
I assume you're replying to me. Sorry if I'm putting words into people's mouths, but isn't that what it suggests? Oh, seven places are taken anyway, so we should be grateful just to survive?
football is aspirational and always will be, so it's not about finishing 17th with dull uninspiring football as you suggested. It's about doing the best that the team/club possibly can, but tinged with realism. Roy of the Rovers stories don't happen that frequently, but it doesn't stop one hoping or wishing.
I think that is the crux of it, CT, but I do think the question of progression is worth discussing. What I would like to see is the long-term development that Longsight is talking about. I found it refreshing that Josh Murphy got his first start last night and Jacob got his first appearance as sub. Add to that, two other young players on the bench and that for me is an indication of long-term development. In his post-match interview, Josh was full of praise for the help that Redmond had given him. It's a huge advantage to have young players who don't count in the squad. That sort of thing didn't happen under Lambert and who knows if it would happen under a new manager. At the same time, I'm also looking for short-term development as well, especially with the new players added this year. Injuries have certainly disrupted that and I accept that has affected results in the first half, but given that Tettey and Pilks and maybe Howson will be back soon, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect better results over the second half of the season. I don't think any of us want to see City battling for survival every year, so the minimum for me would be 40 points, but I'm not sure that would convince me that sufficient progress is being made on the pitch. As an optimist though, I think that more than 40 points will happen and City will finish mid-table again.
yes that is about it we don't have stupidly rich owners or massive debts, we will always be in bottom half its just the way it is I enjoy watching us pit our wits against the best players and sooner or later I know I will have a few seasons of watching us thrash 1p5quit its just the way it is
I hope you're right. I know some people say us doubters want the team to fail, but honestly we don't.
Agreed. For example, if the way Swansea played against Man City was typical of their season, I'd be worried about only having 21 points but I wouldn't be calling for Laudrup's head. No way.
I think this topic has been covered a hundred times over. But in very short arguably we have a better squad and our finances are hugely improved from staying in the prem so as a club yes we have progressed.
Do people want dull and uninspiring even if it leads to relegation? Even less so. Its not an either or scenario to me. I personally think we are more likely to stay up with a change in philosophy, as long as the person in charge is up to it.
