Off Topic Politics Thread

[ImpSaint]

Erm, i'm a passionate Remainer, but check out my avatar....

You can still be patriotic and want all the benefits that a political attachment to the continent brings.

I didn't say I agreed with it but then it is a generalisation from a "lefty" author in the modern world so I am not really surprised at sweeping generalisations.

The basic premise is pretty accurate though. Flags everywhere on the council estates here (there are already loads all year round anyway) and hardly any can be seen in suburbia.

 

[ImpSaint]

So BAE systems has earned a fat contract to build 9 ships for the Australian Navy!!! They will be cock-a-hoop with this news in the offices of the Mail and Express, and on the backbenches of Tory party. There is a country soemwhere in the world that did away with its military altogether and decided it would be better to fund education and health, and as a result its economy grew. Finland is neutral, so does not have a standing army facing the might of Russia, but it never feels threatened. As a result it has more to spend on other things.

I think the point that is being made is we made a deal to make "stuff" AFTER we leave the EU with a non EU country before we have left the EU. I daresay that somewhere in the terms will be something that we currently aren't able to offer but will be after 2019.

On the Finland thing. They rely on something called NATO.............which means rely on the US.

 

[ImpSaint]

um, they're all being built in Australia!

Maybe we are sending 4,000 of them back to make them A lot of Aussies over here.

 

[VocalMinority]

Winning the world cup? Or will that be suggested is a leavers thing and the remainers "don;t care about the national team anymore?"

I have no suggestions. There is a vast chasm of modern social class nothing to do with the old class of upbringing. There is no way to bridge this in the near future because it isn't just a "bad" politician vs a "good" politician with hapless people following their tribe. While both sides seem to think the other is the sheeple and they are not the reality is that neither side is really "sheeple" because there has been a societal shift in terms of expectation.

Yes politicians (and I would suggest vested interests + media) are happy to utilise those societal shifts to drive their own interests we have a vast difference now between people who are doing "quite nicely" and those that have been hammered quite literally by those with money.

The problem being that the narrative pushed is that those that have been hammerd (in terms of migrant workforces) are lying and lazy and those who do not have experience of that believe this hook line and sinker which creates resentment. People don;t like being called liars.

And yes this is the crux of a vast amount of leave votes. People who were affected by migrant workforces being called liars and lazy not just by politicians and media but by a large amount of society that believe this narrative.

That has created a vast divide and of course while the TV/internet continues to push this narrative and the tabloids continue to aggressively over exaggerate something that did not need exaggerating then there is no way of uniting again.

Unfortunately in this day of social media and instant reaction to everything, herding opinion etc I don;t think the divide will disappear in my lifetime. Modern politicians like divides and the modern world is too hooked on jumping on any cause (good or bad) the instant they hear about it.

From a remain perspective i read that as you supporting migrants for a moment, thought you were complaining about migrants being called lazy rather than the people upset at migrants themselves being called lazy. Realised that couldnt be what you were getting at so took a reread to see your leaver spin.

For the record i'm a remainer who was given his first job my migrants so i obviously i'm on the opposite side but i generally agree with your points.

 

[ImpSaint]

From a remain perspective i read that as you supporting migrants for a moment, thought you were complaining about migrants being called lazy rather than the people upset at migrants themselves being called lazy. Realised that couldnt be what you were getting at so took a reread to see your leaver spin.

For the record i'm a remainer who was given his first job my migrants so i obviously i'm on the opposite side but i generally agree with your points.

I do support migrants. I am married to one. I don't support business and those who are in the pockets of business creating a narrative to demonise the British worker to support the influx of cheaper more obeyant and maliable migrant workforces.

These jobs were not created in 2004. If business had been open in the first place and stated "we don;t want to pay market rates above NMW and we don;t want workers that dare ask for their worker's rights" people like you would have been in meltdown at the suggestion. Problem we have 14 years later is that the narrative they created is now supported by the fact that British workers will not do those jobs now for the pay the now offer and the threat of no work if you do not obey they offer.

Not a spin. I am telling you my story and it isn't a "lone story." I don't socialise with many Brits at all. I get on with "foreigners" better most of the time. I don;t blame the people. I blame the myths and the lies. Its all about the $$$. They don;t care if you are a Brit, an EU citizen, a commonwealth citizen or anything other. You are a number, they want profits, how to make the profits and then what sweet story to facilitate that profit.

We all know there is enough money in the world for everyone. There is enough food etc yadda, yadda. People who support the globalists are supporting something that will never reach that end goal. All about a race to the bottom which makes the constant use of that term by politicians ridiculous. Theyquite literally support the race to the bottom.

 

[VocalMinority]

I do support migrants. I am married to one. I don't support business and those who are in the pockets of business creating a narrative to demonise the British worker to support the influx of cheaper more obeyant and maliable migrant workforces.

These jobs were not created in 2004. If business had been open in the first place and stated "we don;t want to pay market rates above NMW and we don;t want workers that dare ask for their worker's rights" people like you would have been in meltdown at the suggestion. Problem we have 14 years later is that the narrative they created is now supported by the fact that British workers will not do those jobs now for the pay the now offer and the threat of no work if you do not obey they offer.

Not a spin. I am telling you my story and it isn't a "lone story." I don't socialise with many Brits at all. I get on with "foreigners" better most of the time. I don;t blame the people. I blame the myths and the lies. Its all about the $$$. They don;t care if you are a Brit, an EU citizen, a commonwealth citizen or anything other. You are a number, they want profits, how to make the profits and then what sweet story to facilitate that profit.

We all know there is enough money in the world for everyone. There is enough food etc yadda, yadda. People who support the globalists are supporting something that will never reach that end goal. All about a race to the bottom which makes the constant use of that term by politicians ridiculous. Theyquite literally support the race to the bottom.

Everything you just said is political spin mate, all politics and no actual economics.

 

[ImpSaint]

Everything you just said is political spin mate, all politics and no actual economics.

So your idea of economics is:

Get cheaper workers.
Workers that don't demand rights.
Make more profits.
Country borrows more to pay for those "displaced."
Growth and GDP is up so who cares?

I think the problem that you and others have is you are still thinking left and right. The reality is there are a growing number of "anti globalists" on the left and right. You can't just lump them all in as "alt-right" or "Trumpist" or Kippers.

Not anti-globalism as the sales pitch. Anti what they have labelled as globalism. Communism or Socialism would be great if it was what we got was what the label suggested it as. Same as globalism they end up not being Ronseal.

I daresay if people were not so obsessed with "what I have" we could employ the world, make sure everyone was well, safe and comfortable. No point pinpointing the very rich. Everybody is protecting their stuff and their expectations. Most normal folks are as bad as those they complain about because we all want it all.

 

[VocalMinority]

So your idea of economics is:

Get cheaper workers.
Workers that don't demand rights.
Make more profits.
Country borrows more to pay for those "displaced."
Growth and GDP is up so who cares?

I think the problem that you and others have is you are still thinking left and right. The reality is there are a growing number of "anti globalists" on the left and right. You can't just lump them all in as "alt-right" or "Trumpist" or Kippers.

Not anti-globalism as the sales pitch. Anti what they have labelled as globalism. Communism or Socialism would be great if it was what we got was what the label suggested it as. Same as globalism they end up not being Ronseal.

I daresay if people were not so obsessed with "what I have" we could employ the world, make sure everyone was well, safe and comfortable. No point pinpointing the very rich. Everybody is protecting their stuff and their expectations. Most normal folks are as bad as those they complain about because we all want it all.

I didnt say anything about my view i was just pointing out everything you said was political spin, and saying its not doesnt stop it being spin. i don't have time to say my entire view on economics atm. But theres not enough money is the main thing, despite you saying the opposite.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Can we just stop with the BS that this is in any way about economics anyway?

What has May done for the worker? Or Trump? In most cases they are pretty blatantly screwing them over the angry, white, blue collar types that voted for them. It's not about money or jobs, and it never was.

 

[Number 1 Jasper]

Your remainer champion Danny Dyer was very entertaining last night. I seem to recall hearing that all leavers were uneducated and didn't know what they voted for. Did Danny know what he was voting for? Seems not.

Did any single one of us know , hand on Heart , EXACTLY what they were voting for ?

Take a bow if you did .

 

[ImpSaint]

I am bowing but you can't see me doing it however I don't think we will get what I thought I was voting for so you could say that your statement covers virtually everyone

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[Archers Road]

I didn't say I agreed with it but then it is a generalisation from a "lefty" author in the modern world so I am not really surprised at sweeping generalisations.

The basic premise is pretty accurate though. Flags everywhere on the council estates here (there are already loads all year round anyway) and hardly any can be seen in suburbia.

It's the ones that are flown all year round that I find a bit worrying if I'm honest.

I also find it offensive when the right try to claim a monopoly on patriotism; my grandad and uncles fought - in some cases died - in a war against fascism and nationalism.

 

[Number 1 Jasper]

I am bowing but you can't see me doing it however I don't think we will get what I thought I was voting for so you could say that your statement covers virtually everyone

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Covering everyone was my point .

 

[San Tejón]

Since campaigning started last September, 130 politicians have been killed, to date, in Mexico.
They are also on target for 32000 “reported” murders, this year, a 50% increase on 2014.
Wonder what that figure will be by the time of the three way shared World Cup?

 

[Number 1 Jasper]

Since campaigning started last September, 130 politicians have been killed, to date, in Mexico.
They are also on target for 32000 “reported” murders, this year, a 50% increase on 2014.
Wonder what that figure will be by the time of the three way shared World Cup?

Bloody hell .

 

[ImpSaint]

It's the ones that are flown all year round that I find a bit worrying if I'm honest.

Entirely why I detailed this part in my post as we agree there. (Most of the time) these aren't flag wavers, they are permanent symbols not of pride or patriotism but as warnings or "territory" markers. The flag flying all year round on top of council buildings? I see no problem. Draped from someone's window all year round? Normally (not always) means something different.

I also find it offensive when the right try to claim a monopoly on patriotism; my grandad and uncles fought - in some cases died - in a war against fascism and nationalism.

I don't think the right do try to claim a monopoly on patriotism. I think there are probably more righties than lefties that fly the flag but I think that may also be the continual insinuation by the screen media and more left dominated platforms that it is shameful to even be proud to be English. I am proud to be English............and therefore also proud to be British seeing as England is part of Britain. Also proud to be European. I don't see how anyone should not consider them to be English if that is where they come from. You aren't picking 1 option from the 3. You are English and therefore British and therefore European and therefore from the planet Earth.

For all the talk of thickos and educated the whole of this country seems to have bought into some manipulated narrative of what you should do or feel.

I don't mind someone saying they consider themselves more British and not English...........doesn't change anything in reality though. If they are English they always will be, no matter whether they like it or not.

 

[ImpSaint]

"David Cameron calls Danny Dyer a ‘fackin slag in need of a good slapping’"

http://newsthump.com/2018/06/29/dav...c&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork

 

[Archers Road]

Entirely why I detailed this part in my post as we agree there. (Most of the time) these aren't flag wavers, they are permanent symbols not of pride or patriotism but as warnings or "territory" markers. The flag flying all year round on top of council buildings? I see no problem. Draped from someone's window all year round? Normally (not always) means something different.


[quote[]I also find it offensive when the right try to claim a monopoly on patriotism; my grandad and uncles fought - in some cases died - in a war against fascism and nationalism.

I don;t think the right do try to claim a monopoly on patriotism. I think there are probably more righties than lefties that fly the flag but I think that may also be the continual incinuation by the screen media and more left dominated platforms that it is shameful to even be proud to be English. I am proud to be English............and therefore also proud to be British seeing as England is part of Britain. Also proud to be European. I don't see how anyone should not consider them to be English if that is where they come from. You aren;t picking 1 option from the 3. You are English and therefore British and therefore European and therefore from the plante Earth.

For all the talk of thickos and educated the whole of this country seems to have bought into some manipulated narrative of what you should do or feel.

I don't mind someone saying they consider themselves more British and not English...........doesn;t change anything in reality though. If they are English they always will be no matter whether they like it or not.[/QUOTE]


I don't disagree with any of that Imps - I am proud to be English, and always have been.

With the proviso that, for me, being English has always meant not making a song and dance about it. I have always considered modesty, and tolerance of others, to be among our best qualities as a nation.

 

[ImpSaint]

With the proviso that, for me, being English has always meant not making a song and dance about it. I have always considered modesty, and tolerance of others, to be among our best qualities as a nation.

Indeed. Did you used to have a GB sticker on the back of your cars?

 

[VocalMinority]

For me I'm proud to be English when we do things that I can be proud about, and ashamed when the country does things to be ashamed about. It's not unconditional. But as such what is unconditional is my support and encouragement for the country to do things I would feel proud of, which includes winning the world cup