Nuno Watch / Manager Discussion

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by Dier Hard, Apr 19, 2021.

?

Your preference for next Spurs manager

Poll closed Jun 7, 2021.
  1. Julian Nagelsmann

    17.5%
  2. Brendan Rodgers

    12.5%
  3. Max Allegri

    2.5%
  4. Nuno Santo

    5.0%
  5. Graham Potter

    27.5%
  6. Maurizio Sarri

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Ryan Mason (permanent)

    2.5%
  8. Other - state in comments

    22.5%
  9. Erik ten Hag

    7.5%
  10. Ralf Rangnick

    2.5%
  1. Diego

    Diego Lone Ranger

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    37,498
    Likes Received:
    13,530
    25% sounds a little high to me given that the organisers have to pay the performers/staff and logistics out of their profits but i can't argue because i really don't know.
     
    #2421
  2. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    26,777
    Likes Received:
    26,271
    My issue with the ESL wasn't about the relegation issue. I would have been against it if that had not been part of it.

    The greed aspect was my main issue along with the no consultation with fans and effectively turning the Premier league into a competition for a reserve team.
     
    #2422
  3. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    9,292
    Likes Received:
    3,426
    Personally I think the ESL should just be the top of a pyramid with the clubs not even playing in their national league. I don't think greed or immorality is driving my view there, but actually a world view where national interests come together to create a bigger picture.
     
    #2423
  4. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    26,777
    Likes Received:
    26,271
    Have no interest in that.
    Would give up supporting spurs if they joined that type of structure.
     
    #2424
  5. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,276
    Likes Received:
    5,089
    This would price 99% of fans out of the game. Matchday expenses are already exorbitant. Throw in international travel and accommodation for every other game in the calendar and it becomes eye-watering.
     
    #2425
  6. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    9,292
    Likes Received:
    3,426
    Well only a small number of fans go to away matches anyway. We already have up to 10 matches in Europe at the moment. Travelling to Europe is not that much more than travelling within the UK now. So with a 24 club ESL and a European Cup competition. we are talking about 10 extra away matches in Europe and losing 14 in England.
    I don't think that's a clinching argument at all.
     
    #2426
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
  7. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    9,292
    Likes Received:
    3,426
    I didn't say he shouldn't have a say. I said he might not have any great skill in the area so his temporary absence shouldn't be detrimental to transfer dealings.
    The fact that most people do it differently makes it one of the few ways of getting a competitive advantage if there is a better process out there.
    I'd be very happy if someone challenged my logic on this and explained why a good coach would have an edge in selecting players over someone who had that as a full time job. I can see that he should have a view on which of his own players are the strongest and weakest but getting to that will take many months of analysis of how players are performing. A newly appointed manager will know a lot less about that than Steve Hitchen, Ryan Mason and Ledley King. He will also know literally nothing about our academy prospects.
     
    #2427
  8. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    9,292
    Likes Received:
    3,426
    It's only a matter of time before UEFA implement it in my opinion.
     
    #2428
  9. Alfie Conn

    Alfie Conn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2011
    Messages:
    3,933
    Likes Received:
    5,224
    With roughly 2 weeks before part of the squad return for pre season training and no manager in place this is going to whiff of turning up to school with no teachers or head master, I can remember the chaos in class if the teacher was 10 mins late ,christ knows what's going to happen here
     
    #2429
    Spurlock and Billy The Yid like this.
  10. yossarian

    yossarian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2011
    Messages:
    2,276
    Likes Received:
    1,986
    At a time when we should be reducing our carbon footprint, having fans and teams increasingly criss-crossing Europe by plane doesn't seem very moral to me. If anything we should be switching to regional divisions, i.e. North, South, East and West, all promoting to the Championship so that those smaller clubs and their fans can reduce their awayday costs whilst having a positive effect on the environment
     
    #2430
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021

  11. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2011
    Messages:
    18,435
    Likes Received:
    8,552
    This argument has moved forward since my last comment, but by and large the positions remain the same. Some of us believe that overall Levy is trying to do his best to improve the football team and others believe that ENIC/Levy are using the football team to invest in other projects and line their own pockets.
    1. Spurs charge too much to watch the games. I think they do but this is pretty standard in a neo-liberal society where the market rules. The only way to stop this is too change your government or vote with your feet and not pay it. Since Spurs seem to have little trouble filling the stadium (when they are allowed to) whatever your view Spurs will see no reason to reduce prices.
    The problem underlying all this is that fans view Spurs as their club when in reality it is a business. It is their to pay and support the people who own and work for it but if you are paying thousands of pounds into Spurs, as a supporter, it's understandable that you might expect a level of entertainment commensurate with cost of watching it.

    2. Levy made a mistake in joining the ESL and in employing Mourinho, but both decisions were based on reasonable expectations. I hated what Mourinho brought to the club in terms of playing style but it's not unreasonable with fans and media clamoring for trophies that you would employ the most successful trophy collector in the game. The argument (in hindsight) that it was a wrong decision is very weak. I am glad that the fans defeated the move to start an ESL but if your club is included in a top 6 it would be a huge risk to go in an opposite direction. The fact that the two bankrolled clubs (Chelsea & City) were the first to about turn is because their financial risk was much smaller than the other 4. Even though I personally hate the ESL idea it was not a surprise that Spurs would take part.

    3. Some seem to have always been of the opinion that Levy has built the stadium and training facilities to make selling Spurs more profitable. The fact that they are still here makes that argument weak. The fact that they then employ one of the most expensive managers in the world makes that argument weak. You only have to look at the models used by United or Arsenal to see what owners who are using their clubs as cash cows do. I find it hard to believe that Levy, who has shown himself to be a top financial operator, would use such a convoluted method to produce personal profit. Not when he can earn a fabulous salary while indulging in running his favourite team. The fact that he is always involved in football matters shows his interest not lack of it.
     
    #2431
  12. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    9,292
    Likes Received:
    3,426
    The environmental argument is indeed strong but again I don't think it is a clincher and if taken to extremes would argue for much more limited European competition than we have now. Zero carbon transport is doable however and a reduction in travel wouldn't be anywhere close to the top of a sensible carbon reduction policy.
     
    #2432
  13. yossarian

    yossarian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2011
    Messages:
    2,276
    Likes Received:
    1,986
    Every little helps, as Tesco would say. Get rid of the Europa Conference too, far that matter.
     
    #2433
  14. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    9,292
    Likes Received:
    3,426
    Sort of, but believing we can solve climate change by baby steps is why we've not dealt with it. We don't need to emit any carbon at all in ground or sea travel nor in heating, lighting or electricity production. If we did that then air travel for leisure or business, with all its attendant benefits in getting people to understand that people in other countries are no different to them, would not have to be restricted.
     
    #2434
  15. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Messages:
    14,179
    Likes Received:
    17,737
    I'm going to keep this brief...because it's my birthday and I've got other stuff to do but....this is all shades of wrong.

    The club is and always has been for sale...but nobody will pay the exorbitant asking price. Look at who the oil barons have bought - Chelsea, City and Newcastle would have been the next one. they want a blank slate and to be adored by desperate fans. We're not that and there are plenty who will cause unrest if we're sold to concerns with a history tainted by crime and exploitation.

    ENIC want £1.5 billion and even with the stadium, there are no serious takers. It was strongly rumoured that there was a 50% deal in the offing in the last year but the interested party decided against it. I wouldn't trust Levy or ENIC as far as I could throw them either...but that's ENIC's best route out, as I struggle to see who's going to ante up the full asking price...especially now the ESL has been completely bungled and tv revenues are stalling...

    but for the right price, they'd sell in a heartbeat.

    Anyway, Happy Birthday to me....
     
    #2435
  16. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    9,292
    Likes Received:
    3,426
    Happy Birthday to you!
     
    #2436
  17. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    14,128
    Likes Received:
    18,267
    1&2 I completely agree with you.

    3 though, I think enic would sell if someone came in and offered them what they think the club is worth. I think their initial plan was to buy Spurs get the new stadium done and improve the playing squad so the team was regularly in Europe and thus making them more attractive to buyers who could then take the club onto even higher levels.
     
    #2437
  18. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,276
    Likes Received:
    5,089
    You confuse quantity for quality. Spending more time or working closer with a group of players does not necessarily translate into knowing who is best (if at all) for which situation. By the same token, watching lots of football doesn't necessarily translate to a keen grasp of tactics, hence most armchair fans would make useless managers.

    You could give Tolstoy to a 9 year old and give them a year to read it, their understanding and appreciation still won't come close to giving half an hour to a 23 year old with a doctorate in literature.

    By the same token, it could well be that Hitchen, King and Mason have the quantitative advantage over a new manager in that they have amassed a tremendous amount of knowledge and data about players, but have no idea how or when to apply that knowledge and data to an elite level.

    Some managers are primarily great tacticians. Pep and Maureen in his early days were of this type, each developing systems of play then reverse engineering players into that system. This only worked bc more often than not they worked with unlimited funds, so finding the right players for the system wasn't difficult.

    Other managers are phenomenal motivators. SAF is top of this list. Not the best tactically or in the market. But he surrounded himself with the right people who could minimise purchases like Bebe and Kleberson and focused instead on motivating his group to give 110% every single week. Harry Redknapp was like this for us.

    Other managers have a phenomenal eye for a player, in many respects better than even the best scouts. They tend to snap up young talent before others even notice the hype and nurture that talent to new levels of performance. Rodgers, Moyes, Smith and most mid to top 6 level managers fit into this category.

    Poch probably fit into the latter 2 quite strongly. He was renowned as a student of the game who knew enormous amounts about cultures and players across the globe. He was also a superb motivator. But he lacked as a tactician, as demonstrated in the many big moments where bizarre choices on an inability to change a game cost us dearly.

    So yes, some managers definitely hold a qualitative advantage in player recruitment and deployment over people who may have been at a club for donkeys years.
     
    #2438
    Spurf likes this.
  19. SpursDisciple

    SpursDisciple Booking: Mod abuse - overturned on appeal
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    26,848
    Likes Received:
    13,080
    Happy birthday
     
    #2439
  20. The Changing Man

    The Changing Man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2015
    Messages:
    5,448
    Likes Received:
    5,676
    Many Happy Returns

     
    #2440

Share This Page