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Postecoglou & Lange (& Paratici) Watch

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by Dier Hard, Apr 19, 2021.

?

Next gaffer, who's your preference?

  1. Arne Slot

  2. Ruben Amorim

  3. Luis Enrique

  4. Ange Postocoglou

  5. Brendan Rodgers

  6. Graham Potter

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

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    I think you massively under estimate the importance of managers getting players they believe can and will do the job the team needs to improve.

    Pochettino massively changed the squad to make us progress.

    Redknapp massively changed the squad to get us into the top 4.

    Jol massively changed the squad to get us from mid table into Europe via the league for the first time since the 1980s.

    None of them would have been successful had they kept the previous managers players.
     
    #2381
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  2. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    I can't argue with the pattern but I can't see how they can have done it on purpose. If you look at a sport like sprinting where only one thing matters, the difference between the 25th best performer and the 100th is barely distinguishable to the naked eye. The scatter on individual performances is much higher than the difference. So to tell which sprinter had significantly historical better performance you would have to have the results of many races and allow for wind, temperature, track surface etc. If I then had the choice of signing one of two with more or less identical performance I would need some way of predicting which one was going to get better and which worse. It's very hard.
    Look at tennis, how many junior Grand slam champions go on to win at senior level?
    Comparing two footballers is massively more difficult. There are many more variables and a lot more than one skill. I simply don't see that it can be done with any great precision at all. Everyone can see who the best is and that the 10th best is better than the 100th best but that is the limit I think.
    I think Pochettino used data to get rid of the lazy players. Anyone could (and should) have done that. Redknapp and Jol succeeded because they got us playing as a team. I doubt the exact players made a difference.
     
    #2382
  3. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    Data doesn't necessarily tell you which players are lazy.
     
    #2383
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  4. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

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    Redknapp got players playing as a team cos they got rid of players refused to buy into that concept and bought players in that did.
    Out went Bent, Bentley, Di Santos, Zakora and in came Crouch, Kaboul, Kranjar, Defoe, Gallas, VDV and Sandro.

    Keane and Chimbonda came back (along with defoe) but were ditched the minute they stopped doing what was good for the team.

    Jol did a similar thing.

    Pochettino did not get rid of "lazy" players.
    Lennon, Sigurdson, Kaboul, Sandro, Holtby, Livermore, Dawson and Naughton were not lazy. They were not able to do what he required and they did not buy into his concept.

    A manager needs to have a say in his team if it is to stand a chance of success.

    Therefore we have wasted valuable time by not sorting out a manager.

    I genuinely do not understand how this is up for dispute.
     
    #2384
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  5. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    If you base an argument on the press you are on shaky ground. We don't know what negotiations have or have not happened but we do know it's a big decision that is best made well rather than quickly. As we have a Director of Football in place we can assume that decisions are being made.

    It's not beyond possibility that we will not hear until after the Euros if the future manager is involved in the tournament. I just hope it's not Martinez.
     
    #2385
  6. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    Just look back through this thread and the the transfer thread and count the number of times media speculation was correct. In fact find ONE that foretells anything. If you follow reports and get sucked in you just wind yourself up and it never alters anything. It's like diving into the North Sea to pick out the Cod for your fish & chips. Just wait until it's cooked and enjoy.
     
    #2386
  7. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

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    Alistair Gold is very reliable and has been so for a long time.

    For us to pretend that we didn't try for all these is far fetched... Nagelsmann, Ten Hag, Pochettino, Conte and Fonseca were all approached. To have failed with all is pretty tragic.

    As regards to quickly, I am not arguing for it to be quick.

    My point has always been that for us not to have a concrete plan in place from February (when it was obvious that JM was going to fail) like we did when we sacked Jol, Ramos, Redknapp, Sherwood and Pochettino was negligent.
     
    #2387
  8. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    Ali Gold has still got it wrong several times since Mourinho has left. He has also said he cannot make sense of the news from Spurs. I trust the guy but Levy will keep his decision process under wraps, he always does and he has told us that. So Ali Gold is speculating.

    You are worried that it has not been sorted yet. Is that not being concerned with time? The main worry is picking the wrong guy again and that's always a possibility and means another frustrating season. Remember the relief we all felt when Jol started to improve things, the Spurs fans I knew all said the same. AT LAST we have a manager moving Spurs in the right direction. We need a good decision above everything else.
     
    #2388
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  9. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing that has happened in the last 2 years that should give anyone any confidence at all that the club have any cogent or coherent plan. There's no plan at all other than Levy trying to save his and ENIC's arses.

    It is an utter **** show and ever increasing numbers of loyal fans have had enough. If Levy expects fans to swallow a bottom of the barrel manager and a load of uninspiring signings, he's not going to enjoy what's coming his way next season. These owners are charging the highest ticket prices in football to serve up this crap? Well, it isn't going to wash, Spurf.

    It's nowhere near good enough and a lot of people who had supported ENIC over the last 2 decades are going to make sure that there is change. They or Levy have to go and we need to put the football club as a higher priority than the NFL and developing the High Road properties, the hotel and the diving centre. This was a football club and it has to be run with that as its main priority.

    Levy OUT!
     
    #2389
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
  10. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    I don't follow your argument Brian. ENIC own Spurs they don't HAVE to do anything apart from stay solvent. Levy has made mistakes for sure but there is no evidence, that I can see, that he does not care about the football. What surprises me is that you cannot see that the mistakes are made by all football clubs. They ALL choose the wrong manager and buy the wrong players it's par for the course. When occasionally they get things right success follows. The biggest asset ENIC and Levy own is Tottenham Hotspur FC it would make no sense for them not to make it as good as possible. If they were in it just for the quick buck that bus left years ago.
     
    #2390

  11. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    I feel that you are absolutely and completely missing what's going on in the club. I'm not talking about mistakes I'm talking about the priorities of the owners and where football sits in that.

    They have zero interest in the football side of the business. It brings in income that they're using to operate in the property development market and to try to attract an NFL franchise. I have no interest in that, Zero. None.

    I want ENIC to recapitalise the club to indulge their real interests and stop using the football income to pay for other stuff. They're £1 billion to the good and more, we're paying the highest prices in football, Levy draws the biggest CEO wage in the PL and we're off buying golf courses and massively overspent on the stadium? **** off.

    You put up with it if you want. I know that I'm not going to.
     
    #2391
  12. Billy The Spur

    Billy The Spur Well-Known Member

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    Tottenham Hotspur Football Club is going nowhere under the control of ENIC, these owners are not fit for purpose, their priorities lie in completely the wrong place. Levy has a duty to protect the interests of ENIC over the interests of the Tottenham Hotspur Football Team, that will never put trophies on the table. ENIC are an embarrassment, with one comedy episode after another, they have turned this great club into a laughing stock. Plenty of staunch Levyista`s remain but most of those are suffering with chronic Stockholm Syndrome, thankfully the majority of the fanbase have now woken up and see ENIC for what they really are, an investment company using Tottenham Hotspur Football Club as an investment opportunity.
     
    #2392
  13. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

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    I think you (and others) are looking at this issue in isolation.

    I have no faith that someone who;
    1. appointed JM
    2. tried to furlough low paid staff to save peanuts (sacking JM outstripped any savings that would been made) and only did the right thing after tens of thousands of us campaigned to stop it
    3. joined the ESL and only pulled out after fans again protested.

    Nothing I have seen since we sacked JM gives me any reason to believe that these mistakes have been learned from.

    As for the time issue...we were playing turgid, unwatchable, boring football from mid December onwards. It was clear in mid February (3 wins in 13 prem games) that he had to go. Yet nothing was set in motion. To imply I am impatient is missing the point...I could turn it round and say well you are happy to wait indefinitely so are happy to start next season with no manager.

    Surely the club should have had an idea who we wanted or a list of candidates by time they caught on to the idea that JM needed sacking?


    I'm pleased some like you are more hopeful than me. I genuinely hope you are right.
     
    #2393
  14. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    Because the whole of my career says the opposite. All teams need new blood from time to time and you need to add skills you don't have. But my skill as a manager is getting people to perform better by treating them the right way. It certainly isn't choosing better people. So I would delegate hiring and spend most of my time coaching and mentoring. Most people have lots of potential that is untapped. I've also rarely had to fire people for underperforming.
    I used to think that this wouldn't be true when you were in elite territory but in my last business we were literally the top performing business in our sector in the world for several years. The main difference is that it is much harder to keep performance up. But having a big staff turnover is disastrous because the team becomes fearful and can't perform.
     
    #2394
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  15. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    Stockholm Syndrome doesn't even exist mate. Every owner of a football club is doing exactly the same, as the only way of making a return on a football club is success on the field.
     
    #2395
  16. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    So if you were the owner you would spend more money and charge lower prices?
    All the other developments are to help the club to do exactly that!
     
    #2396
  17. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    ...or you could use a load of money generated by a football team to buy land, get planning permission to build a load of homes and sell them....or build and lease a supermarket...or buy an NFL franchise.
     
    #2397
  18. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    Continually suggesting to people that they've said or would say things that they haven't or aren't, isn't helpful. Please pack it in.

    ENIC need to recp]aitalise to free the football club of carrying ENIC's real concerns - NFL and property development. If you're a business expert, that shouldn't be beyond your comprehension
     
    #2398
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
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  19. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    Money generated by assets like the stadium can be spent on the team without breaching ffp. So the only point in recapitalising is to reduce debt which given its low interest rate doesn't make any sense at all.
     
    #2399
  20. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

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    If people are unable to adapt with the changing needs of any organisation then they should be supported to move on. If they are willing then they should receive training and support.
    That doesn't lead to fear, it leads to an understanding and personal development.

    JM was an example of a manager who could not get players to adapt so insulted them.
    Pochettino started off by moving on players without falling out publicly or insulting them but later fell into the trap of not adapting himself to changing circumstances and both he and the team stagnated.

    In my job we have to constantly change and adapt to meet the changing needs of our kids.

    In the last 12 months I have worked through 2 lock downs, worked with one of our kids in a park and another in a different school.
    I ran a project to get the kids and staff to make colour hand prints which were then used to teach them how to wash properly and to make a permanent rainbow display. I also ran a project to get the every one to say one thing they liked, one thing they disliked and one thing they learned during Lock down as a way to help them discuss their feelings and these were also put on permanent display.

    I also ran a whole school photo project to introduce the concept of perspectives both visually and emotionally (feeling, situations, when is a joke an insult etc).

    In class I introduced a morning handwriting practice which has massively developed our pupils English and spelling skills.

    A kid I do one to one work with could not write or read last Sept when he joined but is no only 3 months behind where he should be.

    I am also mentoring and supporting new staff.

    If (over the next 18 months) none of of the kids I work with progress educationally, their behaviour gets worse, the projects do not improve the look of the school and do not add to the kids learning I would expect to be told to up my game cos I am making mistakes.

    If I do things that publicly make my school look bad like tell a parent (who says their kid was justified in spitting at me) that they are an idiot or not notice a kid has sneaked a pair of scissors out of class or lose my temper after a day of being sworn at and kicked I would expect a final written warning.
    If I did all three I would expect to be fired.

    Doing outstanding work for 5 years, 18 months previously would not excuse the unprofessional behaviour on an on going basis.

    I mention this cos that is how I view what has happened at Spurs.

    Levy is responsible for improving us and his mistakes up to 18 months ago were understandable.

    The stupid employment of JM, the furlough debacle, the lunacy of the ESL were not understandable mistakes...they were always wrong and are an embarrassing stain on the club and only someone who had completely lost the plot could have made all three of these decisions in such a short space of time.

    That is why I do not have faith in what is going on. The club, through Levy's behaviour, has broken my trust in it to do the right thing.

    We all have a moral code or line...and Levy stepped right over mine with the furlough and ESL decisions.
     
    #2400

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