Off Topic News & Current affairs (no Br***t)

Discussion in 'Charlton' started by ForestHillBilly, Feb 6, 2020.

  1. Shabby of Toad Hall

    Shabby of Toad Hall Well-Known Member

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    Great news here in Spain as we found out last night (and over and over again this morning) that Spain has three female vice presidents in the government, and is a world leader in this respect. I don't know about you but to me, that reads like three people doing the same job. Surely one vice president and the other two could do another important job they are qualified to do (Finance minister, Sanitary, employment - there's room for improvement all over the shop). This item of gossip arrived as we begin to plough into the fourth wave of Covid-19, and mask wearing becomes obligatory in all public places, including the beach and the back woods of the country.
    We recently had a wave of financial help fpr businesses hit by Covid -19. The place I work for was due 15,000 euros, but only 5,000 turned up as the money ran out. So I guess we will have to bathe in the luxury of all the vice presidents we have running the country. I've criticised the UK government repeatedly, and with good reason, as some of what they are up to is much closer to theft than government, but the Socialist coalition we have here can match them effortlessly for incompetence and uselessness. Both should be gratefull that the presence of Bolsonaro and Putin, plus the memorably dangerous Trump meant they could never reach the pinnacle of democratically useless No. 1. But give them time.
     
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  2. Ubedizzy

    Ubedizzy Active Member

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    Sorry Lardi, have to respectfully disagree. It wasn’t peaceful. It was unlawful. It was dangerous given the situation with Covid. The organisers were asked to call it off beforehand but refused. The people present were asked to disperse, but refused and became abusive and aggressive. Those present were a tiny minority of the population who shouldn’t be allowed to put us all at risk because of their opinions. We can all think of laws we might not like, but society only works if we do what’s right for the vast majority. And what did the Old Bill do wrong ? They made a very few arrests, used very reasonable force and ended the illegal gathering. Can they only act if people are ‘armed’ then ?
     
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  3. Shabby of Toad Hall

    Shabby of Toad Hall Well-Known Member

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    I think Lardi was more worried about the pointless new police bill that is on it's way through parliament. There are already laws to punish people who attack the police or smash up shops and cars so the new bill doesn't add anything new there, but does make any protest liable to bizarre prison sentences with some fairly un-legal language. As I've seen mentioned elsewhere, some of the protests against Mr Duchatalet could have led to people getting served a ten year sentence for walking down Floyd Road behind a fake coffin, and I imagine that idiot Tony Kehone would have been happy to prosecute the fans as such.
    As for the protest in Bristol, I take your point that it shouldn't have happened with Covid still an issue. But this was an issue which will probably be done and dusted when protests are 'allowed' again. As for the violence, it wasn't all the protesters, but a minority, in the same way that the police weren't all violent but some went OTT - for me, these things are never so balck and white that one side is right and the other completely wrong. I've no sympathy with people who want to tag along a peacefull protest to attack the police and smash property up. But the right to protest peacefully is ours - taking it away is a horrible step in the wrong direction.
     
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  4. lardiman

    lardiman Person up!
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    The Police are being told to use intimidation tactics.

    If you resist arrest so violently that officers have to pin you to the ground and handcuff you, you should be prosecuted for resisting arrest.
    Then you get a chance to defend yourself in front of a court, and a jury of your peers.

    How many of those women were prosecuted?
    None, as far as I know. They were all released quietly a few hours later so I've heard. No further action taken.
    In effect, those women were assaulted and imprisoned with no intent for them to be able to defend themselves in open court.
    They were got rid of, in order to intimidate others who were present, and disperse the demonstration using fear.
    How singularly appropriate, for a vigil to remember a woman murdered by a police officer.

    These are the tactics of force and coercion.
    Take a peaceful gathering and push people.
    When some push back, restrain them and cuff them and take them away.
    Then let them go later, quietly.

    Welcome to the new post-Covid UK.
     
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  5. Ubedizzy

    Ubedizzy Active Member

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    Mmm difficult one this Shabby, I agree about peaceful protest that respects others BUT just because a protest is peaceful doesn’t mean it should always be allowed to continue. Look at the XR protests. They could be described as ‘peaceful’ in that you don’t need to use violence to sit down in a road and block it. However they are still unlawful and the Police should intervene. Otherwise we would have to allow any big group with a grievance to block roads, disrupt business, put lives at risk by stopping ambulances, fire services, police etc etc from getting somewhere. Surely that’s not right ? In which case the public expect the Police to intervene even if no actual ‘violence’ is being used. Protest yes, but be respectful of others who don’t share your views and don’t try to force others to accept your views especially if you are in a small minority.
     
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  6. Ubedizzy

    Ubedizzy Active Member

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    Likewise to my reply to Shabby, Lardi, I agree that peaceful AND respectful protest should be allowed unhindered, but I’m afraid that the Clapham Common protest was neither and therefore needed to be stopped. I agree that if people have committed offences they should be charged, but then you’d have people accuse the Police of being vindictive. Besides it depends on what they were arrested for. As to no recourse for the people arrested - that’s not correct. People regularly sue the Police for all sorts of things. Most are rightly unsuccessful but others are found to be hard done by and receive apologies and sometimes compensation. Our legal system is one of the best in the world and it allows this type of action to anyone to take, often on free legal aid. Likewise our Police are some of the most restrained and professional in the world. What would you have them do in this situation ? The protest was unlawful due to Covid restrictions which apply to all of us for our safety and to save hundreds of lives. The Police ask a protester to leave several times verbally. The protester refuses and becomes abusive and is encouraging others to continue to break the law. The Police ask them to stop again but they still carry on. Would you have the Police just walk away ? No they shouldn’t, so then the Police try to arrest the protester, they refuse to cooperate so the Police are entitled to and actually have to use force to carry out the arrest. Placing someone on the ground and handcuffing them is perfectly safe and reasonable in the circumstances. It’s the best way to make the situation safest for everyone. It Was Not a peaceful gathering and it’s not the tactics of ‘force and coercion’ - it is simply the Police carrying out their lawful duty as they are expected and required to do by the law abiding people of this great country.
     
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  7. lardiman

    lardiman Person up!
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    I respect your opinion @Ubedizzy but I don't share it.

    Peaceful protest is a right in a free democracy. No right of protest equals no freedom.
    Right now we have no freedom. That has been removed by emergency powers Parliament voted for itself.
    I accept the situation, but only because it is necessary to protect the NHS and save lives.
    By the time Parliament reviews its emergency powers again they will have been in force for 18 months.
    I believe that Parliament will vote to extend the powers again, persuaded by the argument that they will be needed during the winter of 2021-22, when the virus will surge again.

    We will seamlessly move from a situation where our freedom has been withheld because of immediate danger, to a situation where our freedom continues to be withheld - as a precaution against the possibility of danger.

    Meanwhile, the new Crime Bill will be voted into law.
    Under that new law, any proposed demonstration can be vetoed in advance by the authorities - again as a precaution against the possibility of unrest or disorder.
    Protesting will no longer be a right. It will be allowed as a favour, at the discretion of those in power.
    And any demonstration that occurs without prior notice being given (which will surely happen more often, once authorities have unlimited power to ban protests in advance) can be immediately stopped, by force, simply because it is 'unofficial'.

    Overnight, protesting will be forced underground. It will become something subversive. Something that right thinking, law abiding folk don't do.
    Something that 'the people' have to be protected from.
    It is so easy for the virtues of law and order, and the protection of the public, to replace the right of freedom to dissent.
     
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  8. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Laurence Fox opens his mayoral campaign by describing London as the "Cathedral of Wokery". Bloody leftie luvvies.
     
    #1168
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  9. Ubedizzy

    Ubedizzy Active Member

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    I try not to get too far ahead and predict what might happen in months or years to come as none of us actually know, but I’m fairly sure that we will never get to the state in this country that you are describing, certainly not in the foreseeable future anyway. I just think the actions of the Police at the Clapham Common demo were completely justified, which is what the independent enquiry, having looked at all the evidence also decided.

    Would you just have allowed the illegal gathering to carry on regardless of the existence of Covid. If so then where do you draw the line ? Are BLM protests ok, are XR blockades ok ? Should we allow football fans to gather inside and outside stadiums during matches ? The list is endless - you can’t have one rule for some and another rule for others.

    Just asking some rhetorical questions as we probably won’t agree on this, but that’s absolutely fine with me. It’s nice to have a reasoned debate without it descending into insults and profanity which unfortunately is all too common with social media. It’s actually partly what attracted me to this site over others.

    I look forward to our next joust Lardi :emoticon-0100-smile
     
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  10. Ubedizzy

    Ubedizzy Active Member

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    Never heard of Laurence Fox but as long as he isn’t Sadiq Khan with a name change, then he isn’t the worst mayoral candidate
     
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  11. Ubedizzy

    Ubedizzy Active Member

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    #1171
  12. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    The criticism of the police action was pretty universal, but Sadiq Khan seems to be a bit of a bete noir to some. Politicians don't apologise for anything these days anyway. Non-apologies, now that's a different matter.
     
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  13. lardiman

    lardiman Person up!
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    Apologising is seen as a sign of weakness, especially among people who think making mistakes is also a weakness that should never be admitted to.
    I've made plenty of mistakes in my time, and have offered apologies for many of them.
    After a while though I gave up.
    When you apologise, not only do many other people think you're weak. They think you're wrong more often than people who don't apologise.

    Back on the earlier question;
    I can tell the difference between some grieving women holding a vigil, and a crowd of eco-terrorists intent on causing maximum disruption. Or mobs who enjoy tearing down statues, or smashing windows and setting fire to police vans.

    However it's an academic point really, since the Law will shortly not have to make any distinctions.
    BLM, XR, or a vigil of women in sympathy for a murder victim kidnapped off the street at night.
    None of these gatherings will be allowed.
    But hey ho, such is life. Easy come, easy go.

    I'll be amazed if Khan loses the London Mayor election to that tory bloke.
    The current Mayor has been spectacularly average at his job, but he's not been as bad as Red Ken - or Boris either.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
  14. Ubedizzy

    Ubedizzy Active Member

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    Sorry, but peaceful demonstrations which respect the rights of others to disagree and also allow others to go about their business with minimum disruption will continue to be allowed to go ahead with the support of the Police. I believe that will always be the case in this country and quite rightly so. If they can’t stick to these very reasonable parameters then they quite rightly should be banned. It’s up to the organisers to meet the criteria set out by the law of this democratic land and then they can demonstrate and try to convince others to come round to their view.
     
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  15. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Very few demonstrations achieve anything. The only ones that do are the ones that have a small but specific aim, like the protests against the closing of A&E at Lewisham hospital. Even then they would not have achieved anything if the had not been accompanied by legal action.:emoticon-0165-muscl It was wonderful when the decision to keep it open came through.
     
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  16. lardiman

    lardiman Person up!
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    As I say, it's an academic point at the moment anyway.
    All protests are currently illegal, and will remain so for a period of at least 6 more months.

    On a brighter note, I'm glad to hear that there is no institutional racism in the UK anymore.
    Well done Mr Johnson for clearing that unpleasant matter up.
     
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  17. lardiman

    lardiman Person up!
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    Deliveroo April Fools' joke backfires in France

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56617049

    ...but few customers were amused. One of them said he had "almost had a stroke" after receiving a €466 invoice for 38 pizzas that he had never ordered.

    The French - no sense of humour! <laugh><laugh><laugh>
     
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  18. Dick Plumb1

    Dick Plumb1 Well-Known Member

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    I remember when I worked in the City during the time of the Stop The City Demonstrations .I was walking to Cannon Street and I got into a conversation with one of the protesters. He said that the only reason he was there was to cause as much damage as he could and have a confrontation with the Police. I have always remembered that.
    I am all for peaceful demonstrations and I have been on a few myself including the poll tax demos that turned nasty.
    The problem being that some of the bigger demonstrations are infiltrated by anarchists.
     
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  19. ForestHillBilly

    ForestHillBilly Well-Known Member

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    The biggest one I went on was the Stop the War one, over a million people on it. It seemed that everyone in the country except Young Tony knew it was a huge mistake. Did he listen? Did he f*ck!
     
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  20. lardiman

    lardiman Person up!
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    I attended just a couple of protests in London;
    One was to do with the last few mines closing, some time in the 1990's I think.
    The other was a protest at the State visit of Japanese Emperor Akihito in 1998.
     
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