Liberty stadium

NEIL McClure, the former Swansea City chairman, came out of the woodwork this week to give his take on where it all went wrong for the Liberty Stadium. In an email sent to the Evening Post, McClure claimed more people should have listened to him "When we were planning the original Morfa Stadium, we planned for a 25,000-seat stadium," he explained. "But time and time again I was told that this was too large. 'How many people are you getting at the Vetch?' the people from the Welsh Sports Council and their ilk would ask. "'Build it and they will come,' I would reply.

"If only the "know-alls" who controlled the grants had the imagination to understand that if Swansea get to the Premiership, as surely they will do, 40,000 seats will not be enough." Swansea's followers will hope McClure's confidence in his old club proves justified, and that they do progress to English football's top tier for only the second time in their history. In truth, the prospect of Swansea reaching the Premier League was not on the minds of many during McClure's time at Vetch Field, which lasted from 1997 through to 2001. Almost inconceivable then, it is the realistic next step for Swansea now. Hence the question of whether the Liberty is big enough has raised its head.

The current capacity is 20,500, though a chunk of seats always have to be left empty for segregation reasons and around 200 disabled places — which cannot be sold to able-bodied fans — have gone unfilled even when Swansea games have sold out. It is not often the full-house signs have gone up since Swansea left Sandfields for Landore in 2005. In fact there have been just four occasions — the two Cardiff City fixtures this season, the Leeds game last term and the game with Yeovil just over three years ago when Trundlemania was at its height. In the eyes of Roberto Martinez, Swansea need only consider extending if and when they start filling the Liberty on a regular basis. "I think these things come naturally," he says. "When the sold-out posters go up for five games in a row, we should start thinking about getting a bigger venue. "At the moment that isn't happening.

"I would expect crowds to go up if we were playing Premier League football, but you can only make these steps when you are certain. "We have to know we are going to fill those seats week-in, week-out and not just for the big games." Martinez's approach could mean Swansea not having the room to accommodate all the people who want to watch them if they do make it to the top division. No club wants to be turning customers away, but then the Liberty as it is now will aid Swansea's Premier quest according to the manager. "You want to have as hot an environment as you can get," adds the Spaniard, "and you do that by having the stadium as close to full as you can. "It's pointless building a bigger ground if you are going to have empty seats."

For the Liberty to grow, Swansea's decision-makers need evidence that there is a demand for more space.The average league gate this season, after all, is only just over 15,000. And then there is the example of Swansea's one previous top-flight foray in the early 1980s. Even as John Toshack's team stormed into English football's top six, the Vetch's 24,000-capacity was only taken up for the bigger games. "You have got to ask what the potential gate is if we do get into the Premier League," says Gwilym Joseph, the Swansea director who oversaw the Liberty project on behalf of the club. "When we got there under Toshack the average gates in the Second Division were something like 19,200. "In the First Division the average was still under 20,000, so you wonder whether there would be a big jump if we were to win promotion again. "I have heard a figure of 40,000 mentioned, but I don't see that."

So Joseph, a construction expert, takes issue with McClure. But he shares the former Swans supremo's regret over the decision to downsize the Liberty in the first place. "The football and rugby clubs and Swansea Council asked for a 25,000-seat stadium with arrangements to expand even further in the future," he went on. "But the Sports Council for Wales would not support a grant of £3million, which was needed to relocate the athletics facilities from Morfa, if the stadium was built that size. "Their argument was that our gates didn't justify a stadium of that size." Maybe that is understandable. During the long period when the move to Morfa was being planned, Swansea were bumping around in the Football League's two bottom divisions, even flirting with the Conference at one stage.

The rugby clubs — first as Neath and Swansea, then the Ospreys — were not attracting anything like enough fans to suggest a 25,000-seat stadium was required. So the Sports Council got their way, and the Liberty was built in such a way that expansion will be tricky. "Everything is possible," Joseph adds, "but extending the stadium now would mean a complicated design. "The cost would be absolutely massive and the question is, who would pay for it?" It would be up to Huw Jenkins, his Ospreys counterpart and the council to come up with an answer should they ever decide that the Liberty is too small. Right now, though, the size of Swansea's home is not top of the chairman's agenda. "As always, we are taking one step at a time," Jenkins says.

"Getting to the Premier League is one thing, but staying there for more than 12 months has proved very, very difficult for a lot of sides. "Building a bigger stadium for 12 months would be a bit irresponsible, so the first thing for us is to get to the Premier League and prove we are good enough to stay there. "The fanbase is there for us to get bigger crowds. "There are only two clubs in South Wales who can conceivably reach the top division, ourselves and Cardiff, and there are two million people living in the area. "One million people is a lot for each club to pull from, but we have to overcome the hurdle of getting to the top division and staying there before we start thinking about an extra 10,000-15,000 seats."

For Swansea to cross the bridge of stadium expansion, it seems, they must first swim with the big fish of the Premier League. - EP, Friday, January 23, 2009

 

Said it at the time Phil, these utter idiots have restricted our club by not giving a £3m grant to move the morfa stadium if a 25k stadium was built, what possible reason could that be, could it be that the were actually Cardiff fans and wanted to get a dig in? I would bet these same numpties put money into cardiff's stadium!

 

I think if we had had that extra 5000 seats, then there would have not been such an acute issue, but not planning in expansion is criminal neglect on such a project as this, we have a modern stadium that has less capacity than the old Vetch! Thing is maybe we should have not given the Welsh Sports Council, so much say!............

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But they gave the project £3m to help move the athletics side of things from there, they must be pissing themselves now knowing that they did this, and costing our club money by turning away punters! I am sure that the previous plans were to build a stadium like mk dons, if you look at the image you can see the top tier all the way around the stadium can be used if there was need

http://www.meyersound.com/news/2008/mk_dons/web/mk_dons_082.jpg

they have the ability to extend their 22k stadium to a 32k stadium for the price of seating only! And to 45k by adding another tier, very forward thinking imo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadium:mk

 

I think Huw Jenks has said that expansion of the Liberty is expandable at low cost by filling in some areas and adding like 2k seats or something.

Whole heartedly agree with the aforementioned points though... I feel so gutted that the Liberty was planned with such narrowed minded Kerdiffites

 

Yes see where your coming from Jager, makes this project of ours look very amateur in it's forward thinking, bloody shame if you ask me, if I was Jenkins I would get an architectural design engineer commissioned to see what can be salvaged with regards to expansion, with today's technology surely there must be some options for us, besides building a brand new stadium.....................

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Phil, I thought it had something to do with the ground anchors (or what ever they're called) not be strengthened enough

There must be a way of expanding the East stand using a temporary kind of stand with fresh footings and stuff!!








Disclaimer: Believe it or not I am not a structural engineer haha

 

Looking at the way the stadium has been built. There must be a way of cantilevering a second tier to the North, East & South stands, it would mean a lot of pilling work for the stanchions which would then be tied into the existing structure. Technically you will be building three raised ends outside the stadium structure, might be possible. Not 100% but isn't this the way Man Utd went when increasing the capacity of Old Trafford. Can never remembering them demolishing a stand to get it re-built.

 

If the existing structure was to be expanded that would have to exclude expansion of the West stand as this would impinge on the already insufficient parking availability.
The East may involve stanchions or foundations in the riverbed.
The South has room currently to the rear although I've heard McDonalds will be building a 'restaurant' there quite soon.
Lots of problems there, including the fact that any increase in attendance will cause chaos unless a safe access route is provided such as raised overpasses from Rossis area and proper footpaths and pedestrian areas around the stadium.At the moment pedestrians and cars are fighting for space.Yet another example of bad planning at the construction phase.

 

If the Club is guaranteed Premiership football for several seasons then it is worth expanding the stadium if it is possible. Realistically, Swanseas long term true level in footballing terms is likely to be Championship at best. (When the stadium was built we were in League 2). A stadium of 20,000 is more than adequate for that level of football.

Going on from there, we have to be thankful to Huw Jenkins and the Board that we have been successful over the last few years. If we had had one or two bad seasons our support would probably have gone down well below the 10,000 barrier.

Would anyone here be happy going to a 25,000 seater Liberty stadium in December with only 8,000 in the ground?

 

But you can only go on the now, we are a club turning away customers because of lack of thought ! There is no way we will go down to that level now, even sousa with his brand of football couldn't do that

And I don't agree with your assumption of Swansea's long term situation being Championship, that is to negative thinking, we are a club on the up, not on the way down!

 

PGF well i was in the 20,000 Liberty stadium, with just 6000 fans?? Remember Orient in the cup, last January!! I was happy enough, though dissapointed at the turnout!..............

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point is with construction is how long, when, how many games with minimal fans, all financial considerations

 

Then once all that has been sorted - you double it !

 

so true jager

 

It's all very well looking back and saying the original decision was wrong, but at the time the decision was made they had to make it based on what was happening at the time. I think they made the right decision based on the facts available. If Swans stay in The Premier League for a few years but are always near the bottom then I can't see every match being a sell-out. People will get fed up quickly if there isn't much success. The fact is, that to many people it is just boring being the bottom 6 year after year. As for a 40,000 stadium, I don't think they would ever fill that. The other thing to consider is what the atmosphere would have been like if the stadium had been bigger. 5,000 fans in a 25,000-40,000 stadium would have been truly awful.

You can't say the decision was wrong simply because we got promoted. If we go straight back down will the decision then revert to being the right one?

Hindsight is a great thing, but you can't make decisions based on it.

 

Nope I said it was wrong years before getting promoted, and making the stadium in such a way to make it virtually impossible to upgrade is a travesty, no vision has been showed at all, you got to ask why the funding to move the athletics track has got to do with stadium size ? I believe the cost of the previous design would have been similar to the liberty!

Really we have been stitched by the sports council for Wales who are probably all cardiif fans who have second teams in the premier league - utter numpties !

 

Look, if we stay up and we´ve still got a reasonable business model, who´s to say we wouldn´t be able to afford to build our own 25 or 30k stadium with room for expansion? That way the Ospreys will have a purpose built stadium, and the council can put on as many rubbish gigs as they want!

 

Yes, should probably have been designed so as to make expansion a bit easier. But if it had been bigger to begin with then the atmosphere would have been terrible and people would have been complaining for years.

No point blaming Sports Council. I doubt they deliberately withheld money. They have a duty to budget wisely and they must have lots of competing projects. After all, it's a SPORTS Council, not a FOOTBALL Council. Many people participate in other sports, so they should also get a fair share of any sports money.

 

Anyone who builds a stadium, with less capacity than the Previous one is a numpty, end of, and you can pontificate all you like, secondly, the fact that no allowance for expansion had been built into the design, also confirms the stupidity of the said numpty responsible, this has nothing to do with hindsight, but complete planning by a monkey! I must admit it does smack of Cardiff tunnel vision to anything outside it's centre!, I agree with Jager, Bangkok your reasoning is flawed, and your supposition that atmosphere would be terrible, is a very weak, if not none existent argument, try coming up with something more factual....................

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