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Lessons to Learn with an Ex Number 2

Discussion in 'Bristol City' started by wizered, Aug 6, 2020.

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  1. wizered

    wizered Ol' Mucker
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    Lessons to learn? Bristol City's history of making caretaker managers permanent
    Like many clubs, the Robins have often appointed from within - to mixed success

    With Bristol City considering appointing Dean Holden as their new head coach following a five week recruitment process, could the club learn lessons from their own past?

    Bristol Live understands that Holden is a leading contender to get the head coach position at Ashton Gate, during a "rigorous" interview process being conducted by the club.

    Bristol City have a fairly rich history of caretaker managers who have then gone on to get the top job. Indeed, internal appointments seem to be in fashion at the moment, with Brentford and Fulham competing in the playoff final both led by managers appointed from within.

    Bournemouth are believed to be letting no.2 Jason Tindall succeed Eddie Howe this summer - and could Bristol City be the next club to follow suit?

    Going back a few years there is a precedent at Ashton Gate, albeit like at every club in the land at some point, for the team to have a long period without a manager before the caretaker manager was finally given the full gig.

    Bristol City historian David Woods tells us that - off the top of his head, and resources can be sparse to cover the early years - there was a long gap between Fred Ford's sacking on 19 September 1967 and the arrival of Alan Dicks on 16 October (appointed 5 October).

    Dicks, of course, was the last manager to take Bristol City up to the top tier.

    Going back further to 1910-11, Woods says that it could be argued that with director Frank Bacon taking over from Harry Thickett in early October 1910, he might have been a temporary arrangement prior to the return of Sam Hollis, in mid January 2011, though the fact that Bacon resigned suggests this was not a stop-gap arrangement.

    Woods adds that, of course Roy Hodgson's position was only really as caretaker following Bob Houghton's resignation. And that obviously the formation of BCFC 1982 affected things but Gerry Sharpe also filled in as caretaker until the appointment of Terry Cooper. Overall there may have been a gap of some months, although this is not listed on the official list of managers on the club website.

    You can find David Wood's books on Bristol City here.

    Caretaker managers at City since 1980

    Looking at the more recent instances of internal appointments being made, we spoke to long-term Bristol football journalist - and former Bristol Post reporter - Richard Latham, whose views on the Robins you can catch on the long-running Subs Bench show via their Facebook Page.

    In Richard's time covering City the following were appointed.
    • Roy Hodgson 1982 (from assistant-manager)
    • Joe Jordan 1988 (from player)
    • Jimmy Lumsden 1990 (from assistant-manager)
    • Russell Osman 1993 (from player-coach)
    • Tony Fawthrop 2000 (from joint caretaker-manager)
    • Brian Tinnion 2004 (from player)
    • Keith Millen 2010 (from caretaker-manager)
    And in Richard's opinion:

    "Of those, only Joe Jordan could be said to have been successful in the long-term, taking City to the League Cup semi-finals in 1988 and promotion from the old Third Division a year later.

    "Roy Hodgson did okay - and that was the season of the Ashton Gate Eight's departure - and Roy had it for a number of weeks but the club couldn't afford to keep him as the finances were shot to bits. And they changed again to Gerrie Sharpe, who was the youth coach, for the last few games. Before Terry Cooper came in the next summer.

    "But the next one, that they actually appointed was Jimmy Lumsden after Joe Jordan left, after Joe shocked everybody by leaving the club in 1990. Jimmy had a good month, they appointed and he lasted that season but he was gone in the following season.

    "Russell Osman ended up getting the job in 1993, after three people were in charge for a bit (Mark Aizlewood, Gary Shelton and Russell Osman in 1992).

    "Then it was Tony Fawthrop after Tony Pulis had the job and he lasted five months to January and he resigned, before three more people took charge: Leroy Rosenior, Tony Fawthrop and David Burnside from the academy, and they took the club to Wembley in the Auto Windscreens Shield - losing 2-1 to Stoke City. And at the end of that season there was the famous 11 days of Tony Fawthrop being appointed, before he resigned and Danny Wilson came in.

    "After that came Brian Tinnion, who had played in the play-off final that City lost, until that 7-1 loss to Swansea City. And the last internal appointment was Keith Millen, after Steve Coppell left - as another example of someone who was already there and got the job. And he did okay for a bit before being replaced."

    That ratio means that some fans believe the portents are not good. But who knows in this crazy game and craziest of seasons.

    If Dean Holden is appointed he will not have history in BS3 on his side - though he may instead choose to look externally (unlike the club) and see the success of Roberto Di Matteo, Gareth Southgate, Peter Wild and Ole Gunnar Solskjaer for inspiration on what can happen.

    As well as Tuesday night's combatants: Thomas Frank and Scott Parker.
    https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport...s/lessons-learn-bristol-citys-history-4397878
     
    #1
    wizered, Aug 6, 2020
  2. wizered

    wizered Ol' Mucker
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    We all know if we appoint Holden, he might be the nicest chap in the world but it's the cheap option, least experienced, part of the previous failed management but if they are going to do it, bloody get on with it.

    There will be a lot of disillusionment amongst the fans.
     
    #2
    wizered, Aug 6, 2020
    Angelicnumber16 likes this.
  3. oneforthebristolcity

    oneforthebristolcity Well-Known Member

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    Nothing changes there then!!
     
    #3
    oneforthebristolcity, Aug 6, 2020
    Supcon72 likes this.
  4. wizered

    wizered Ol' Mucker
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    We continue on LJ's downward slope and the rumour is his chief lieutenant will take over, as you say, nothing changes or so it seems and poor old LJ has got nothing to do with it.
     
    #4
    wizered, Aug 6, 2020
  5. invermeremike

    invermeremike Well-Known Member

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    The damage that's being created by our team management by being so disorganized in their search for a new coach/manager during these difficult times beggars belief. Should the problems created by this pandemic run well in to next year (a strong possibility) then many previous supporters with season tickets might just decide they have better ways to spend their money and time. Revenue streams have dried up and if you ignore the needs of your followers then you risk a generational turn away from the sport and if you fail like City to take heed of the pundits then you risk more than the future.

    Wake up Lansdown and remember who the life blood of your sports empire are - us!
     
    #5
    invermeremike, Aug 7, 2020
    BCFCRob likes this.
  6. Supcon72

    Supcon72 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, that downward slope of being an established Championship side<doh><doh>
     
    #6
    Supcon72, Aug 7, 2020
  7. smhbcfc

    smhbcfc Well-Known Member

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    If Holden is appointed I will be underwhelmed

    But ........ that's exactly how I felt when Cotts was appointed - and he gave me my best season ever as a Bristol City fan - the way we played was superb

    If Dean gets it then we need to put our disappointment to one side and get behind him
     
    #7
    smhbcfc, Aug 7, 2020
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  8. wizered

    wizered Ol' Mucker
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    I should have put in capitals "RECENT" but took over in 17th place ended in 12th, 1 place a year better (just over) in 4 and a half years, what progress, and at what expence, millions invested, over 55 players signed, biggest back up staff ever, no honours, bog awful football, split fan base and now it looks like it will continue.

    Now I'll wait for the LJ wolf pack to come and devour me.<laugh>
     
    #8
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
    wizered, Aug 7, 2020
  9. BCFCRob

    BCFCRob Well-Known Member

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    Dean Holden is another level of underwhelming compared to Cotts though mind. Cotts was underwhelming but at least he had more than about 15 games in management!
     
    #9
    BCFCRob, Aug 7, 2020
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  10. Loathsneyd

    Loathsneyd Well-Known Member

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    Surely a split fan base won't continue? I'm sure I read that fans should now unite behind the new manager whoever that may be
     
    #10
    Loathsneyd, Aug 7, 2020

  11. wizered

    wizered Ol' Mucker
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    You may well be right but if it's Holden, he will be tainted purely by the fact he was LJ's number 2 but if he starts off with a winning streak who knows?
     
    #11
    wizered, Aug 7, 2020
  12. Angelicnumber16

    Angelicnumber16 Well-Known Member

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    He doesn't care about supporters of the football club and never has imho.
    It's just about making money as a business venture for him primarily and under Bristol Sports the already diluted FC is less and less important these days, or so it seems to me. You'd think the riches to be made from even a single season in the Premiership would be more than enough to whet his appetite to get the job done, but it seems not.
     
    #12
    Angelicnumber16, Aug 7, 2020
  13. Angelicnumber16

    Angelicnumber16 Well-Known Member

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    And success, with clubs like Cheltenham before the one amazing, record breaking season with us which seems like a lifetime ago with all the **** that's going on at the club now.
     
    #13
    Angelicnumber16, Aug 7, 2020
  14. bcfcredandwhite

    bcfcredandwhite Well-Known Member

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    John Pemberton is missing off that list of caretaker managers. He did quite well I seem to remember - stopped the free fall that we were in when Cotts was sacked and started the recovery which LJ finished in our first championship season of the current stretch.
    I’ve said before on different threads that I’m preparing to be underwhelmed by the next appointment. I can’t see SL granting enough freedom to an ‘established, proven’ manager.
    However, I will support whoever it is and give them a few games before I start calling for another change.
    It’s also worth remembering that whoever takes over will inherit LJs lightweight leaderless squad which is woefully weak in Midfield. To be honest it’ll be quite incredible if we achieve mid table without strengthening, whoever is appointed.
     
    #14
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
    bcfcredandwhite, Aug 7, 2020
  15. Redprintt

    Redprintt Well-Known Member

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    Wash your mouth out <laugh>
     
    #15
    Redprintt, Aug 7, 2020
  16. Loathsneyd

    Loathsneyd Well-Known Member

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    The case for Dean Holden and I’m know its not going to convince the negative Nellie’s on this forum but here goes
    1. He seems to be well liked by the players
    2. If appointed, he must be liked by the hierarchy
    3. He will be well aware of the principles and philosophies set out by Steve Lansdown and the club and be willing to work under those
    4. Contrary to popular hysteria the Johnson years have not been a disaster. We’ve gone from a struggling Championship side to an established top half team in a very competitive league, challenging for a play-off place for the last three year until very deep in to the season. Failure to achieve the play-off place and ultimately the fading away cost Johnson his job but the fact that we were in contention means we are not a million miles away. Holden was/is part of this process. Yes for the bad parts but for the good parts as well and if successful he probably would have given reasons in his interview for this ultimate failure and his plans to address the issue going forward, which if appointed would have made sense with those interviewing him.
    5. He can hit the ground running, he doesn’t need to assess the squad because he knows it and therefore can make quick decisions on who to keep, who can go and where we need to strengthen.
    6. He will be the cheap option, I don’t really understand why people see this as a negative especially in a post-covid world. How many people given a choice of two suitable candidates would go with the more expensive one?
    All in all keeping Holden on could be just a case of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
     
    #16
    Loathsneyd, Aug 7, 2020
  17. Redprintt

    Redprintt Well-Known Member

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    Negative Nellie !

    Pot black kettle <laugh>
     
    #17
    Redprintt, Aug 7, 2020
  18. Loathsneyd

    Loathsneyd Well-Known Member

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    I've been called a lot of things but I'm not sure anyone could call me negative in my support of the club or its decisions
     
    #18
    Loathsneyd, Aug 7, 2020
  19. Supcon72

    Supcon72 Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, the last time I was excited by a manager appointment at City was Steve Coppell, and look how that turned out..... McInnes was unknown, SoD had a good rep, but was at the club at the wrong time, Cotterill had good L1 experience, and so it proved, Pembo was only ever holding the baby, LJ wasn't quite ready, but had the club in his heart. So I see Holden in the Pembo category and a worse appointment than any one of the others.

    I do wonder if that experience with Steve Copout has put SL off naming a manager who has been there and done it, as they won't put up with his level of micro-management?
     
    #19
    Supcon72, Aug 7, 2020
  20. wizered

    wizered Ol' Mucker
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    Total Experience
    C/Manager & Manager W5 - D 7 - L8 - Total Games 20

    Teams managed
    2015     Oldham Athletic
    2020– Bristol City (Caretaker)

    d - Assistant Manager - 0.00
    Assistant Manager of: Lee Johnson (181 Games)
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    Walsall 15/16 (Mar 25, 2016) 16/17 (Nov 9, 2016) Assistant Manager - 0.00
    Assistant Manager of: Jon Whitney (31 Games)
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    Oldham Athletic 14/15 (Jun 1, 2015) 15/16 (Jan 12, 2016) Assistant Manager - 0.00
    Assistant Manager of: David Dunn (20 Games), Darren Kelly (9 Games)
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    Oldham Athletic 14/15 (Mar 17, 2015) 14/15 (May 31, 2015) Manager 11 1.00
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    Oldham Athletic 14/15 (Feb 25, 2015) 14/15 (Mar 16, 2015) Caretaker Manager 4 0.75
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    Oldham Athletic 14/15 (Nov 14, 2014) 14/15 (Feb 24, 2015) Assistant Manager - 0.00
    Assistant Manager of: Lee Johnson (17 Games)

    Summary of managerial experience..
    Manager W D L ......Total
    Oldham...2..5..4........11
    C/Taker W D L
    Oldham..1..0...3.........4
    C/Taker W D L
    Bristol City 2...2...1.....5

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Holden
    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/dean-holden/stationen/trainer/39122/plus/1

    With this sort of record and experience why would he become Bristol City boss, we want a proven winner and experience if we want to reach the Premier.
     
    #20
    wizered, Aug 7, 2020
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