Slightly surprised that some of the regular doom merchants haven't seen fit to comment on JB's latest press release that his aspiration is still to see PAFC in the Championship. His original business plan overestimated the revenue from gates and other matchday activities (as I suspect most football club chairmen do) but he has (apparently) subsidised this shortfall. Whilst I may continue to be accused of seeing JB as the Argyle saviour my overidding opinion is that nothing has changed since he took over and publicly stated his plan for the future. IE the club has to self finance. He won't pump £millions into the club but will keep it going (until/if it becomes a money pit with no return) . Obviously there are opportunities for him to make money on the non football aspects of owning the club-potential development of the surrounding area, conference facilities etc. Having spoke to him on a couple of occasions and conducted some (voluntary & unpaid!!) business with the club, my observation remains is that he is very genuine in respect of his new found passion for football and PAFC in particular. So, in the absence of a multi millionaire with nothing better to do than bankroll the mighty greens I think it is about time we paid the guy some respect for backing the club and the manager to succeed; and for those claiming he hasnt risked/invested anything, well actually he has, and I hate to think where we would be if he hadn't thought there was a viable business case for success, or in the face of some of the criticism he receives he had walked away. The phrase 'put up or shut up' springs to mind.
So what has he put up himself then lyndhurst? He got £1.7m for the ground. He did not fork out £1.7m when he signed up and we the paying customers are paying off the back wages by going through the turnstyles on a matchday. You do the sums and come back and tell me what he has paid out. He is entitled to conduct business opportunities elsewhere. However, by signing up as the owner of Argyle he has opened the door to these opportunities and he would not have had them if he hadn't. I am told he is the darling of the Civic Centre and almost has free run. A figure of speech I'm sure and not literal but it does say they think he can do no wrong and is being handsomely rewarded. If Argyle go belly up again then he will do what a load of other millionaire types do. Dissolve the Company and walk away with his own fortune intact and the creditors will take the hit again. Anyone can talk the talk and he is very good at it. We should be here or we should be there. We have a very competitive budget. Fans experience needs to improve etc etc etc. I for one agree that Argyle needs to stand on it's own two feet. That doesn't mean he can take money out of the club to make that harder. That doesn't mean he shouldn't initially at least prop it up a bit. I don't see him doing this and I don't think he ever will. He needs to try to expand the directors with some cash and I'm sure they are out there. People locally wanted to buy in when the last Board was in place but were not allowed to. The only offer he has made is for fans to buy in but makes it clear they won't have any say. Whilst people weren't lining up to get their hands on the club previously we will never know now if anyone else would have stepped in. The whole Administration process was a farce from start to finish. He is here whether I like it or not but please don't tell me to be grateful. He will and is doing very nicely out of it and doesn't need my gratitude. If he wants people like me to spend my money on his club then he must ensure he gives me something worth spending it on.
"He" did not get £1.7m for the ground Sensible, the PAFC group of companies did. He did not own the ground personally. Be careful in your terminology. Some seem to see a contradiction in the aspiration to Championship status and the need to make PAFC self-financing. I don't; it's possible to do it by gradually improving the squad & results, but we're looking at 10 years not 2 for sure and the fans will need to stick with it if they share the desire to see the club progress. Whether Fletcher is the man to do that is arguable: to do it while being self financing obviously requires better management than riding on the back of short-term unsustainable over-spending. Key to this may be the continued flow of 1st team players from the youth system - that's if they aren't all stolen by higher league clubs first.
To establish ourselves has a Championship team again will take longer than it did last time ...........losing it was done in minium time....ie consecutive relegations plus administration and nearly Conference level achieved......obviously easier to fail than succeed.
Maybe now Mr. Sexstone has become a director with football experience it might well reflect on the team as it shows them that the club is looking for more stability. Obviously he knows a lot of people and could attract more to follow even if not on a full time contract as himself I believe. Got to forget the farce that happened in earlier years and with 3/4 wins on the trot will put us around the play-offs area. We all know the team are better than our current position so who knows....I think today was a step forward for Argyle!
He's good at talking the talk but so far he hasn't walked the walk. He has done nothing to back up his "championship" talk.
The supporters will not stick with the side unless there is year on year improvement notdistant. They will not pay to see the odd decent game in a season for years. I think the supporters have been very tollerant so far. They have shown their gratitude that the club didn't fold but there is only so far you can push it with goodwill. At some point Argyle will have to show some committment toward the fans or the fans will show their frustration and stop going. With all due respect notdistant, and not an "I'm a better supporter than you" comment, but you don't fork out week in week out. It is far easier to be patient from a distance when it costs you little or nothing in a season. It is easy for you to be critical of supporters impatients and scold them that they should turn up regardless. I keep harping on the theme that you would not frequent an outlet elsewhere in the hope that by doing so it would improve. You know you wouldn't and this isn't any different. You would stop being a customer. By the way enlighten me. Who is the PAFC group of companies if it isn't Brent? Are there other owners out there.
What gets me as said previously wait for a few wks. at least then review our comments again, something will change and feel it wil be for the better. We have a fanbase of 5-6K at HP which was much better than the Dan M'caully days in the late 90's. Remember coming back then against Cheltenham and gate was just over 3K.
My opinion of Argyle fans as a group isn't something I've developed recently: I've always been of a similar opinion. Outside the hardcore of away game fans, the rest aren't as committed as you mights see at clubs elsewhere. The booing of junior players over the past few months is a disgrace. Because nobody takes it on board, I'll repeat it again: ultimately, over the longer term, where a club settles in the league depends on how many fans come through the turnstiles. The easiest way to achieve success, particularly where the wage cap makes a direct link between earnings and spending, is for more fans to come through the gates. Fewer fans through the gates will tend to disadvantage the club. Fans can choose to toss their heads in pique and flounce away if they wish but those rules are immutable so in the end they'll get the club they deserve. Another thing I keep on saying is that football clubs don't make money. We know Argyle isn't making money because Brent has recently had to subsidise it. Here's rule 1. There is a complete & utter separation between the owners of a company and the company itself. The Victorians, who invented the limited liability company, called it the Veil of Incorporation. Shareholders are NOT responsible for the debts of the company and they are equally not entitled to it's cash unless complex and restrictive procedures are followed. Rule 2. Unless a company is a) able to declare distributable profits in audited accounts and b) it also has the cash do do so, it cannot make distributions to its owners. This isn't a matter of custom & practice, it's a matter of law. Therefore, Brent is NOT taking money from current operations, in fact he's putting it in, even though he's not legally obliged to. Rule 3. If a company sells one of its assets - a football ground for example - that cash goes into the company that sold it. It cannot be transferred to another company or individual unless complex and restrictive procedures are followed. In summary, Brent isn't Argyle and Argyle isn't Brent. He cannot just pop into the office and pick up his £1.7m in a very large brown paper envelope. That money remains somewhere within the PAFC group of companies and it's true it can be used for the proper purposes of that group - certainly including the ground redevelopment but probably not for any developments outside that unless special provision is made to do that. You'd have to look at the Articles & Memorandum of Association to know what the money can and can't be used for. Any change to the Arts & Memo have to be registered at Companies House [along with the original documents] and I'm pretty sure someone would have spotted that. You can have a look yourself if you want to cough up the fee. The use of the £1.7m may also have been restricted by the court in the scheme agreed in the distribution. The court [and the creditors] certainly won't have allowed it to be wafted away elsewhere in the Brent empire. Even if the £1.7m is used to create value in property, that value remains inside the limited company, it isn't Brent's except via Rules 2 & 3 - or by the sale of the company concerned. The latter is the way things are done: a company builds something - say an hotel - and then the company is sold containing the hotel. Brent doesn't make any money until that's done and even then, the value will go into his group of companies where it's again subject to Rules 2 & 3, not to him personally. So, you were incorrect when you said "he" got £1.7m for the sale of the ground, OK? "He" didn't, some company associated with PAFC did and it's still in there somewhere. Whether it's already gone to pay off PAFC's debts or is sitting there waiting to build a new stand, I don't know.
not Distant-thankyou. You have articulated my thoughts/opinion very well and saved me a lot of typing! As far as I can see JB very much wants the club to succeed and as failure would be damaging to his reputation and other business interests why would he be here otherwise,? He presumably has a business plan to make money from spin off activities (development of the surrounding site etc) and appears to be assembling competent, experienced, board members who can take the club forward in a sustainable way. Unlike the previous regime these may not be high profile but this is no bad thing if they bring their particular expertise to the club. Yes performances on the pitch have been inconsistent, but at the start of the season I would have settled for mid table obscurity and I suspect that is where we will end up. Push for promotion next season and Championship in 5 years. Of course this all depends on the fickle home fans keeping the faith.
Fickle Lyndhurstgreen .... you have a short memory ..... it was the fickle fans who collected money at every opportunity they could to give the unpaid staff something .... if was the fickle fans who fought anyone who got in the way of stopping Argyle from surviving ..... fickle ..... how bloody dare you say that or think we have to be grateful for watching carp at times and just lump it and not moan about it ..... next time you buy something and it doesn't work remember not to complain about it just except it .... yeah right !
Absolute load of tosh. THE FANS ARE NOT TO BLAME. There you made me shout it now. Don't give me all this crap about supporters having to go through the turnstyles to watch what is often rubbish. Any business, yes any not just this one has to give punters something for their dosh. You are good at quoting business practice as you have above but where is the service from the provider in all of that? I have never said that Brent has "pocketed" £1.7m. What I was saying is that any money spent so far has come from that and been spent on Argyle which presumably they are allowed to do. It has not come from Brent's own pocket. It is not suprising that people see Brent and Argyle as the same thing is it. He owns it. All of it. Lets move on to "mid table mediority" shall we. We are nowhere near mid table at the moment. We are 19th at the moment and could as easily after the next couple of matches be in the relegation zone. We may not be but we could. The product that some of you seem to think supporters should pay for isn't exactly providing even mid table is it. I repeat for your benefit notdistant as I'm sure being local lyndhurtgreen attends, you don't spend anything so don't have a go at other people if they aren't exactly enamoured with it all. It would be nice if we had a larger hard core of supporters. We don't and never have for years. Reason being that most of the floaters have felt let down over the years by successive Boards who have given little for them to get excited enough about. Any business relies on customers which has been agreed by all. To get and keep these customers you have to provide something they want, in this case to see. People have been let down badly so why blame them for doubting Brent as another one who is going to do the same. Argyle's track record is littered with such owners. The very faithful will continue with their custom no doubt and will wait as long as it takes. Me included because I guess you could put me in that category. But, I don't blame others for not waiting around. Brent's outside interests, gained by his purchase of Argyle and for no other reason, are doing him nicely. None of that has had to wait around for years and he has been very quick off the blocks to put it all in place. Good luck to him with his other businesses but I want to see him do something with this part of it as well and not just the bits that line his pockets.
GAT-fickle because they boo at misplaced passes and are the first to criticise the slightest thing, but still claim the glory of any success-btw I applaud the hard core PAFC fans including me, and no doubt you, that would support the club whatever the circumstances. My gripe is with those supposed fans whom seem to want to find fault with Argyle and maintain we are doomed; and when we achieve future success will no doubt bemoan JB for making money out of the club. Despite moving down here 25 odd years ago and having had a season ticket for 20 or so of these years, I still despair of the attitude and small mindedness of some supporters. In reply to your comment, and at the risk of repeating myself from other posts, I don't believe that I have ever suggested that you should be grateful for 'watching carp' but I maintain that you should be grateful that the club is now relatively stable and has a future. I actually liked the previous Chairman, but unfortunately ambition and ability got confused and decisions were made that almost caused the demise of the club. Trust me, I supported the excellent staff (both financially and practically) that kept the club afloat during the dark days of administration but it is now time for some realism . In the absence of a wealthy fan willing to pump £millions into the club to buy success, we need to survive on a sound business footing. JB and his strategy appears to fit the bill and thus he has ny support. Unlike buying something that doesnt work I /you have the ability not to attend/purchase. Noboby owes the city of Plymouth a football club, but if the people of Plymouth want a succesful club, they need to back those people that have a viable plan for survival.
Good Sensible, so all you are saying is that having BOUGHT the ground from the council a few years back, the club has now been forced by it's mismanagement to sell it back a again. Had it NOT brought the ground in, presumably it would have had more cash to weather the storm it suffered. We are merely back where we started but with the least risky landlord we're likely to get. You accept that Brent hasn't benefited in any way shape or form from buying Argyle: indeed he's had to put money in, both to settle the administration debts and to subsidise current operating losses. You understand that anything he has put in is earning him no return and is not likely to as football clubs don't make money - and we know for sure PAFC is actually running a loss. I in turn accept that he may benefit directly in the future from property deals adjacent to the ground - although Argyle will get a new stand, free - and indirectly through deals elsewhere in Plymouth that he might [NB MIGHT] not have been to access without his association with the club e.g. the Pavillions. I have no objection to that on 2 grounds: a) people are allowed to make money in this country and b) the developments will be good for the city. Now then, the second thing you have to swallow. We have seen no signs that anyone else was willing to make a credible bid for Argyle. There wasn't a year ago and there's no reason to think there is now. So gratitude has nothing to do with it, neither does what I think or what you think; there is merely no known alternative. Not palatable, but a fact. In any event, a thinking person knows that there is no chance whatsoever of Brent selling the club until the property deals are done, so at very least there's no point in burning energy in raising blood pressure for the time being. It's futile.
If i was to provide a service in our line of work we get murdered for being a Plumber! so its not much different here, they serve up crap and expect people to pay for it. If i served you up a crap heating system you would not pay for it, i would not expect you to either until it was sorted out. So until its sorted out at Argyle, people won't go and watch crap.. I would have people getting on to trading standards, but at argyle we expected to take it, most will not take as it shows. Brent is as Mrs Lala says is all talk. I doubt he has the money to pump into the club. Another one the that Toad who came in!! Lining his pockets then he will be off. with the club no better off.. This is not the fans fault as some say!! Its Brent who got the club cheap and now does not want to spend .. how does he think they will get to the championship?
Brent won't let the club go under while the property deals are still in play Joe. What he will do is if he has to is to cut costs to minimise the loss he has to fund. We've already seen that in part with the recent redundancies. After the hotel is built, who knows whether he'll go on covering the losses. Staying away is fine, as long as you know the rules & the consequences.
Fed up now with this discussion-time will tell whether JB makes a success of the club or equally gets fed up and walks away. Greenarmy-have just about deciphered your post - not sure if you get murdered for being a plumber these days. but it probably explains why I cant get one when needed. If you don't want to go to argyle then don't bother, but equally don't moan if it goes belly up because ultimately the success or otherwise of the club WILL depend on how much cash the supporters pay into the club (in one way or another).
Did i say i was staying away in my post? Never meant me personally, my circumstances don't allow me to go all the time, have more important things to deal with.. a Son who needs looking after. If i could i would still be there,its not about the cost. I said as Sensible said, if they are not entertaining people won't go. So Brent needs to put his hand in his pocket as he has not spent anything yet? As for being a plumber all the crap on tv is always slating Plumbers in one way or another.. we can't help being the top trade lol. Plenty of Plumbers in Plymouth doing nothing.. s they all wanted to be one a few years ago... gave up their jobs and tried plumbing as they thought it was easy money...
notdistant, Brent is Argyle. Who else got the £1.7m if it wasn't him? If he got it, admittedly into the company that is now Argyle then how much of it was used to pay off the £0.07 in the pound. How much was left and is this what is being used to subsidise the club now? Ergo how much has Brent actually spent himself without the £1.7m being included?
