With the Greeks voting 'No' to austerity in their referendum, basically refusing to repay their massive national debt, what does this mean for the rest of Europe and in particular the UK ? Why should we the UK and other European nations keep bailing out a basket case of a country who refuse to change their ways when others like ourselves are having to endure cuts to our public services and welfare systems etc. in order to get our ecomomies back on track ? Together with the daily threat of terrorism we now have an unstable Europe which is equally worrying, Greece will now probably be forced to leave the Euro and maybe even the EU altogether long term. And what will the Portugeuse think of all of this when they have been tightening their belts to try and repay their debts ? They are not going to be best pleased if Greece gets off Scott free and who could blame them ? I've nailed my colours to the mast previously with regard to our continued membership of the EU and this whole debacle has reinforced my view that we should go our own way. So, as we've no footy related matters to debate presently ................ discuss.
I remember chatting about this with some friends when Greece first had to bailed out and they were saying that Greece should never have been allowed to join the Euro in the first instance, as they didn't meet the criteria. I can see them being forced out of the Euro and dread to think the ramifications for countries such as Spain and Portugal if Greece do succeed in 'wriggling off the hook'. Southern Ireland were able to get their economy back on track with austerity measures and we are in for some tough times after the Budget on Wednesday, so why can't Greece do it?? Somewhere down the line, Greece will have to do something to resolve their economic woes and surely it would have been sightly easier to face up to them now than keep putting off the 'day of reckoning!!!'
This is the great Tory myth though, we don't "have" to make these drastic cuts to our public services and welfare systems at all, it's merely an excuse to press through the Tory ideology of having a smaller state and creating an ever bigger divide between the haves and the have nots. Sadly a lot of people have swallowed it hook, line and sinker and accepted it as a fact, which does cause me to despair. If you think we are in a financial mess at the moment take yourself back 70 years to the end of WW2 when this country was virtually broke with debts running at 200% of GDP. And what did we do to get ourselves out of this mess? That's right, we invested heavily in the state, created the National Health Service offering free health care for all and we built a load of social housing for people to live in (rather than build unaffordable housing that the wealthy can hoover up and use as financial investments as is the case nowadays in this Capitalist world we live in where everything is driven by money, money, money). And regarding your comment about how we suffer the "daily threat of terrorism" - hate to tell you this but no we don't, despite how much our media and government would like you to believe that we do. This is more bull5hit propaganda aimed to control the masses by making people live in fear and put their faith in the "Government looking after and protecting us from these overseas evils". Tomorrow marks the tenth anniversary of the July 7th bombs down here in London, an awful day where 52 innocent people lost their lives and many more saw their lives seriously affected by injuries or the loss of loved ones. It was ten whole years ago that this happened, and has anything like it occured since on these shores? Ok, there was the awful case of Lee Rigby, and I'm sure there have been other plots that have been foiled, but to say we live with the daily threat of such things is just plain wrong and nothing more than scare-mongering. I spend a couple of hours every day on the tube and not for a second do I worry or have any concern about being wiped out by a terrorist. It would be just as simple to say we live under the daily threat of being run over crossing the road, or being killed in a car accident, two things that are far more likely to happen then being victim of an act of terrorism - especially if you live in Norfolk!
Munky I don't happen to think that "we are in a financial mess" and I know you won't agree but in my and many others opinions it's thanks to this government that we are working our way out of it, it's the Greeks that appear ****ed. With regard to the "daily threat of terrorism" I was refering to the world community and not just these isles. It's not just "scaremongering" either mate it's very real have you not seen the news recently ? Considering the restraints our Armed Forces are working to (yes I know they've been made by this government but I'm sure they would have been a lot worse under Labour), they do a fantastic job protecting us and I for one am proud of every one of them
Huh?? So you say we're not in a financial mess, but you also say that we "have to endure cuts to our public services and welfare systems", I'm confused? What you've done here is either completely contradict yourself, or you've agreed with me that the swingeing cuts to our state by the Tories is based on their ideology, rather than for the greater good. And regarding this "daily threat of terrorism", we are at no more risk that we were during the 70's and 80's when the IRA were in full swing, in fact the threat was far greater back then as they actually did blow people up on a regular basis. I don't think you did mean the "world community" regardng the threat of terrorism, I think you actually were referring to the UK and have merely shifted the goalposts to try to strengthen your argument. If you are talking about the "world community" then I wouldn't say the planet is any more at threat than at any other point in history personally, well until the Republicans get back in and stoke another cold war with the Ruskies at least. And how hilarious of you to add your little, completely spurious and totally unfounded comment that our "armed forces would have been a lot worse under Labour" That's poor that is, even by your standards!
Well that's the straw that broke the camel's back, you're now trying to twist my words to suit your own agenda. You obviously have a vendetta against me I don't know why, probably based purely on my political stance. I have always respected your views even though I don't always agree with them but you always resort to personal digs and insults even when IMO they are not justified. I'm getting fed up with your snide remarks towards me on every thread which are becoming increasingly tiresome, is there really any need ? I've tried to engage in courteous converstation, debate and banter with you many times but you're having none of it. You come across to me as a a very angry and bitter man, basically not very nice !
Returning to the OP. Greece were one of the countries allowed to join the Euro despite failing to meet the criteria for entry. Interestingly I believe France failed at least one test as well but that's a different point. The Greek economy has been brought to its knees by a combination of factors including Swathes of corruption among the political and economic elite Very poor economic management by prior administrations Lack of effective tax policies and enforcement Extremely early retirement age reducing the tax base and increasing the burden on the state Overmanned and overpaid public sector Having to compete on an even playing field with more developed economies such as Germany, Holland, France due to having the Euro Not to mention the current global financial crisis The Euro is a huge problem for the Greeks as it effectively takes away one of the key benefits of an independent economic policy which is the ability for a Government to control its exchange rate via interest rates (I know that these are now set by the Bank of England but their remit is to do what is best for the UK economy which they could not do were we in the Euro). One of the reasons that we are doing better than a number of EU states is that our currency was allowed to slide against the Euro which effectively cut our prices and makes our goods more competitive. This process is now reversing and the £ has strengthened considerably against the Euro in recent months As the Greeks have no control over a lot of their macro-economic policies they are naturally going to struggle. Realistically they cannot compete with the German's et al unless their currency is left to slide. How many people do you know who used to holiday in Greece but now go to Turkey - broadly similar offerings but Turkey is probably 1/3 cheaper as they are not in the Euro. It cannot help the Greeks that their debt repayments are off the chart high. There is, as far as I can see, no real solution. Either a compromise is reached and they kick the can a bit further down the road in the certainty that Greece cannot repay its debts, particularly as the economy is shrinking largely due to the austerity measures put in place to assist them repay the debt - their debt repayments are pretty much an ever-growing slice of a shrinking pie and the "cure" is actually in danger of killing the patient. Politically the EU cannot be seen to "let Greece off the hook" as the result could be that Portugal/Spain/Ireland/Italy may all decide that their debts may now be reneged upon which would destroy the Euro and devastate the European and probably World economies. Also morally they should not be allowed to borrow recklessly and then shrug their shoulders when it come time to repay their dues but there has to be a different way. What is happening is not working and if nothing is sorted out very quickly their banks will run out of cash and then you will see huge social and political unrest so somewhere down the line a compromise has to be reached to get the Greek economy moving again to at least give them a hope of repaying some of the debt at some point in the future. I really hope that something can be sorted out as Greece going bust whilst a moral lesson for other countries will have profound consequences for the people of Greece as well as the rest of the world.
...which basically means you've admitted you've lost the argument, you have nothing with any substance to come back with so instead you try to make out that I am being unreasonable, when all I have actually done is pick holes in your OP and argue against them using a facts and just a bit of personal opinion. "Personal digs and insults"???? Go on then, show me any evidence of either from the two posts I made this morning? "Snide remarks" Ditto for that - please highlight these because certainly none were intended, and I actually thought my response were very restrained and reasonable "Angry and bitter"???? What are you on about man? You're talking absolute rubbish!! And how on earth can you make the assumption that I'm "not very nice"?? How dare you! You don't know me, you've never met me and never spoken to me in the flesh so how dare you make such a (wildly inaccurate) slur on my character. For the record I most certainly consider myself to be one of the "nice guys", and I have every confidence that anyone who actually does know me will fully agree, however that doesn't mean I have any tolerance when it comes to arseholes I'm afraid, and you can make of that what you will. If all you can do is make things up to try to demonise me and make me out to be the bad guy, rather than try to tell me where I was going wrong with the points I made then I personally find that rather pathetic. I've nothing personal against you at all, and in fact it's you that insists on making things up when the bottom starts falling out of your arguments (which they tend to do quite often for the record - oh, there's a little "dig" for you if you want, though it is based largely on fact so should be fair game on here ). And for the hundredth time how can I possibly be having a personal attack against someone who I have no idea what they look like or ever what their real name is? You're talking nonsense, absolute nonsense, please have another go when you have learned to debate a bit better eh? You do post some excellent stuff on heresometimes, you really do, however I have to say you do also have a tendency to post some absolute guff and drivel, and this most recent post of yours absolutely takes the biscuit
Thanks for that Norfolkbhoy, you're obviously very well educated on the matter and like you say it does appear to be a 'catch 22' situation
For once, KIO, I agree with much of what you say on a non-football issue, as far as Greece is concerned, although I regret your attempt to smear the EU generally in an issue that is completely concerning the Eurozone. As somebody has already said they should not have been allowed in the single currency in the first place but having got in all they have done since is borrow money rather than tackle the root causes of their problems. Certain facts came out in the referendum campaign which were not given wide prominence. The Greeks enjoy the lowest retirement age in the EU with very generous pensions resulting in the Government paying out more in Pensions than they collect in direct taxation and it is pension reform that the Greek Government is refusing to budge on and they are also reluctant to take steps to collect taxes properly and efficiently. Stories of hospitals employing 10 gardeners when they don't have any gardens have proved to be true and Greece, despite being far smaller than Germany, employ 3 times as many people in the Civil Service as the Germans and this figure has gone up in the last 5 years despite the need to actually cut back. The attitude of the Greek Government, and now the Greek people, is please write off our existing debt and then start lending us more so that we can carry on as we have in the past. The Greek Government made great play of the mandate given to them by the referendum. I wonder what result the German people would give on a referendum on ' do you want to work until 70 before you get a pension so that we can give the money to the Greeks to enable their people to retire at 55 on good pensions' I had to carry out a job in Greece 20 years ago and a Brit based in Greece told me ' you go to school, go to work and then retire - the Greeks skip the middle bit ' They will be in a mess whatever happens but surely the time has come for the Eurozone to say 'enough is enough' especially as it will cause far more chaos elsewhere if they just back down and bail them out again without massive reform . As far as our Country is concerned it is a debate better for me to avoid in view of my past history on such subjects except to say that I basically agree with Munky.
It's an odd one really. The EU are at fault for letting Greece in, but equally perhaps Greece should have considered whether the single currency is good for them, because of the big areas of commerce that contribute to their economy. Norfolkbhoy is completely right about devaluing their currency, it should be the standard approach for them, but they're unable to. You can't let Greece off scot free, but it also seems mighty hypocritical for it to be Germany pushing austerity and repayments the hardest. They have had large debts twice in the 20th century. The first time led to the rise of facism, and the second time the rest of Europe agreed to write-off significant quantities of debt, and arrange repayments in a very favourable fashion for Germany, which allowed their economy to flourish. To turn around to Greece now and say they must scrimp and save to repay every cent seems ludicrous. I think Russia are now the elephant in the room in these protracted negotiations. I could see them offering to take on Greek debts, in return for Greece quitting the EU, and agreeing to work closely and quickly with Russia to build new pipelines, so Russia can export fossil fuels without having to go through the difficult Ukraine area, and reduce prices so Europe can't as easily justify buying fuel from elsewhere, much as they'd like to. With an offer like that on the table, the EU are going to have some serious thinking to do. Such a deal would strengthen Russia, undermining current trade restrictions, and show countries that aligning with Russia may offer them more benefits than the EU.
From what I gather the Russian economy is on the verge of collapse and a couple of extra sanctions from the USA in particular would send it crashing. When Greece approached Russia for help a month or so ago the Russians refused to get involved partly because they didn't have the finance available and partly because of the inevitable reaction of the West.
I may be wrong, but I can't see how the EU are a fault. As I understand it Greece's problems are a consequence of it's membership of the single currency. Wasn't whether Greece joined the single currency or not down to the other members of the single currency rather than all members of EU ? I seem to remember that when they joined everyone knew they didn't really meet the necessary criteria, but decided it wasn't politically convenient to let the facts get in the way of things.
I'm conflating the EU with the countries in the single currency there, which you're right in saying is nonsense. So yes, it should be that subset of the EU which are to be blamed.
To be fair the reference to Germany in the past is a bit misleading. I certainly wouldn't want the first solution to be followed by Greece, although history suggests that Military Rule is not an impossibility, and the second time Germany was an occupied Country and the financial decisions were really made by the USA who also supplied the cash. I am fairly certain that the creditors would reduce or even stop interest/debt repayments for a period of time and even supply more cash if they thought it would produce the massive reforms needed but everybody knows that it wouldn't and it would just be more money down the drain. I also have to say that if it was foolish for the creditors to lend Greece so much in the first place surely it would be extra foolish to lend them even more now.
Whatever the rights and wrongs you cannot blame the current Greek government because they were not in power when this occurred. As far as I see it the right wing European governments are desperate to prevent Syriza from pulling a rabbit out of the hat. Were that to happen then where would that leave austerity as an economic strategy?
Quite simply, the Greeks have continually overspent on somebody else's credit card and have now voted in a referendum to try and make legal the fact that the credit card holder pay their bill for them as they (the Greeks) do not do austerity. I have heard several voices from Greece spouting on Channel 4 news and they all say the same. We believe in democracy but somebody else needs to pay otherwise it is wrong for the Greek people. It is unbelievable and I am 100% behind Merkel - the Greeks had better grow up or go their own way! The truth is, either way they are pretty well........ (fill in the blank!)
A slightly different take on it..... http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/05/greece-what-you-are-not-being-told-by-the-media/
The problem is it isn't "The Greeks" It's a particular section of Greek society. I read somewhere that there were more new Porsches registered in Greece than there were people declaring an income above 50k Euros £35k . The middle classes have been winging it and now want the poor to suffer the austerity...sound familiar? That article above is spot on in my view. Gives the lie to the story that it was Labour that broke Britain.
I think we all know deep down (some of us not that deep) that it wasn't Labour that broke Britain, it's just that a lot of people don't want to accept the truth as it doesn't suit their agenda.
