Mooooorning all! Saw a link on newsnow the other day about us now challenging Utd for the signature of Porto's immensely talented player James Rodriguez, who primarily plays either on the wing or as an attacking mid. Now before the WUM's come out in force, YES I know the story is likely to be bollocks and YES the likelihood of us getting Rodriguez is slim and no doubt some will be saying "IF he joined, it'll be a replacement for Bale", so I've beaten you to it, now run along. Anyway, it got me thinking, why is AVB looking at yet another midfielder more so than a striker IF the rumour is to be true? For those that don't know, Rodriguez is arguably the most talented 21 year old in Europe right now. He has (wiki stats) 22 goals in 51 games since joinging Porto from Colombian side Envigado. Main attributes are his skill, pace and great shooting ability. Now as I said, he's a winger that can play attacking mid, despite his goal record being worthy of a centre forward. So with that said, IF Rodriguez or indeed any other alternative joined (lets not forget we were also linked with Willian who plays a similar role), how on earth could AVB fit so many talented midfielders into a first XI? Could he be looking to adopt the Spanish 4-6-0 or perhaps a 4-3-3 without an out and out striker? Bale seems to be playing more centrally of late so it happens up a gap for new winger to come in on the left and I think if that is indeed the case, it could end up making the striker/ centre forward position a little redundant so to speak. We'd be able to field a very strong 4-6-0/ 4-3-3 formation if we got a player or someone similar of Rodriguez's ilk - in my opinion. ..................................Lloris, Walker, 2 from Dawson/ Kaboul/ Vertonghen/ Caulker, Ekotto ..........................Sandro, Dembele .................................Holtby/ Sigurdsson ........Lennon................Bale...............Rodriguez/ Alternative Anyone else think Andre may be exploring this avenue? Especially as trying to attract a top class centre forward seems too much of a tough task as of late. ... Or have I just jumped ahead a bit?
I don't think they'd fit that sort of system though. I think you'd need to have a lot of pace (and skill) if you're not going to have a striker. That's why I brought it up, because initially we were linked with Willian and now supposedly Rodriguez, both with an abundance of skill, pace and an eye for goal. Gylfi and Deuce, although have an eye for goal don't have that "wow" factor to be able to take on and beat players and create chances for themselves out of nothing.
I think he could be you know. Some will say that the out and out centre forward (Ade recently) makes the runs that gives Bale space. But, i think Bale is intelligent enough in a football sense to be as effective without those runs, or indeed make those runs for others himself if the opportunity arises. Strikers, as we well know, are bloody expensive and often quite a gamble. Knowing what we know about Levy i can see why he may not be keen to bring too many in. We would need a striker or 2 still though as no-one else in the squad, imo, has the ability to make this system work like Bale does so if he is injured or banned for being fouled too much then we will have issues without a striker. We've picked up what were/are considered to be some pretty decent attacking mids for not a lot of money recently. Holtby, Sig, Dempsey for about £16m. A striker with a reputation matching those guys would cost at least that on his own. While those i mentioned might not fit the "false 9" precisely it does show that midfield talent is clearly much cheaper and much better value for money than a striker. Levy has gotta love that.
It's hard to play in the PL without a centre forward to hold up the ball and make runs to occupy defenders unless you dominate possession. You wouldn't want Bale to have to press and harry opposition defenders. You wouldn't want to be conceding cheap possession to the opposition and relying on the counterattack all the time. Adebayor may not be setting the PL alight with his goals, but when he plays he does a lot of unselfish work running the channels, closing down defenders, challenging for the ball in the air- all of which is essential.
Yeah spot on mate. We've seen Bale tear through the defence regardless of whether the CF was marked or not, he's becoming so good that he can simply do magical stuff on his own now. We've seen with goals against Norwich, West Brom, West Ham that he creates his own space and from then on, we all know the end result. Like you say, strikers are so expensive nowadays and it's so hard to tell whether one can fit our system or not. With midfielders, I think it's easier for them to adapt, as if a striker comes in and isn't scoring within their first few games, their confidence takes a massive dent and the pressure build, with a midfielder, providing he doesn't misplace every single pass he makes, has a lot more time to "bed in" and get into the swing of things. Yeah for sure we'll still need a striker, AVB likes to rotate anyway so for the likes of Defoe, it won't mean being benched every single game. But I just think with the potential talent we'd have IF another attack minded midfielder with an eye for goal comes in, a 4-6-0/ 4-3-3 false 9 could definitely be an option.
It's never really been tried though Luke so it's hard to say if it'd be hard to play without one or not. When Spain initially done it, I was a bit puzzled by it yet they ended up winning the tournament (though they did switch it up a bit), granted we're far away from having the players Spain has but I think we have players capable of playing in such a formation to make it successful. It's similar to the myth that every team now needs a "DM", although it seems pretty beneficial if you have an attack minded group of players like us (Sandro/ Parker) but it's not a necessity. I think with a 4-6-0/ 4-3-3 no striker/ false would result in having more possession though, the conceding of possession doesn't make much difference if you have a striker or not in my opinion. We've relied on counter-attacking a lot this season and it's been pretty successful. In regards to Ade, he hasn't been running the channels, closing down defenders and for a guy of his height, he's barely won many aerial challenges. This is why I and many others so frustrated with him, I can live him being in a goal drought but his work rate attitude and general play has been shocking, it's pretty much like playing with 10 men with him on the pitch.
he would be silly to rule out the formation. Everyone said 433 wouldn't work when it came in and everyone else was still using 442. Now it is widespread. I don't really agree it is hard to pull off. If you have intelligent (or well trained/managed) players then it makes little difference. Spain/Barca use a "false 9" with tika-taka but that doesn't mean its the only way to work. Similarly you can play in different ways with 442 and 443 or in fact ANY formation.
We need another winger anyway, don't we? I hope we don't try playing without a striker, as LDL said, we need someone to occupy the centrebacks. It might work with players swapping positions aslong as we always someone's always playing in the number 9 role but I think it makes more sense to have a specialist there who knows the role well and can score consistently. I want NEW STRIKER no. 3
I'm still a believer in Townsend coming back and being the "back up/ alternative" winger to be honest. I know he can be a little frustrating and inconsistent but I still see enough to believe he can have a good future. See what you're saying RE having a specialist in the position but like I pointed out, it seems really hard (especially for Spurs ) to find a top quality striker these days. If we got someone of Rodriguez's (or similar) ability, I genuinely think the actual need for a striker would be weakened. All IF's and BUT's of course but I'm just being a typical optimist
Good thread SOS. I asked some similar questions in another thread yesterday. I've got no idea what's going on with the formation, or who we need. Everything seems very lop-sided at the moment. It's very hard to comment on this in any detail, as we have this "will bale be with us next season?" question hovering over us, which throws another spanner in the works. For now, as this is hypothetical, I guess we've got to go with what we know, and that is that Gareth Bale is a spurs player. If Bale is to be moving central on a permanent basis, there's no question for me that we need a top quality proper left winger to make this work. Like you have mentioned about the prices of strikers, perhaps we could be using that money on a left winger instead? I also think that without a target man, our game will become more about intricate passing. - I think this style is required to make the formation work. Therefore, we have to be able to field a front 6 who pass and move in the same way as you guessed it... Barca. - and Spain for that matter. I think Sandro, Dembele and Bale are naturals for this, but I wouldn't be so sure over certain others in the front 6. Lennon is ok most of the time, but his decision making can be poor. - This can be worked on and he does have the pace. Parker tends not to give the ball away, but skillful 1,2's aren't something you see too much of from him. Demps and Sig are much slower and require more time on the ball. Holtby, i haven't seen enough of him yet to cast judgement, but he certainly looks like he could fit the mould It requires players with some specific attributes to make this work. Barca and Spain are on another level, but it can me mimicked as long as you have the right type of players. - i think we're a few signings away from that. We'll need a LW, a creative midfielder, and another player to play in the "bale role" to even attempt this, IMO. I don't think is possible without those. - If bale was to be injured, with out a replacement in his role, you're back to some sort of a "striker" formation, straight away. For me, there's a fine line between this "0" striker formation and what we currently play; on paper. - However on the actual pitch it's a lot different. We take the piss out of Adebayor (well I do), but he is over 6ft and regardless of his form, central defenders have to keep an eye on him, they have to win headers against him and they have to follow his moves, which means they get dragged around. - This does help Bale. If there was no "Ade" (or any target man who can hold the ball up) i think the attitude of the defenders would change, and a player like Bale would struggle to break through what could be 3 men marking him (2xCB 1xDM) in a very closed off central area. - This is why the skill sets of others would have to be excellent, as it's the patience and intricate passing without a target man that would break teams down. Like i say, I think we're a few signings away from that yet. - but it could be a good alternative to spending fortunes on strikers, if we can get wingers or attacking midfielders to do the same.
With Bale moving inside and us needing more than 3 wingers even if you include Bale, I'd say we do need another. Compared to other positions we've been fortunate that Bale and Lennon have stayed fit so far, were we to get back in the CL next season I'm not sure I'd want Townsend to play for a sustained period if Lennon or Bale got a bad injury. I haven't read the Rodriguez story but isn't he supposed to cost £20/30mill? We could definitely get us a top quality striker for that.
I know this is in jest... but if we were to buy a striker from Europe I'd like it to be from Germany ideally. In recent years they've seemed to adapt well to our league... Berbatov, Ba, Cisse, Dzeko... I can't think of any massive flops actually. We must have a decent chance of signing Lewandowski
There's certainly plenty of them out there. I'm of the opinion that we have to take a punt on one, after doing some necessary due diligence. - I'd certainly trust AVB to choose 1 now. Would Lewandowski join us though? imagine you're not a spurs fan. - Is it really a better move for him? I'm not saying that it isn't, but I'm just not sure that it is!
Cheers Roo. Picked up on some really good points there. Completely agree that we'll need to have players with specific attributes to make it work, something I think we're one maybe two away from. The whole "4-6-0" is based on someone such as Rodriguez actually coming in, as naturally he, along with Bale would be the main focal points into making the 4-6-0 work. I think the players I listed in my OP are good enough to fit the formation, I agree Lennon isn't the best of decision makers but his pace and skill helps him out. Holtby seems to have all the correct creative aspects so I think he could be used as the catalyst to attacks, Dembele will also assist in this by bringing the ball from deep and then you have Sandro to clear up when needed. It'd be nice to have some back ups to fill in should Bale etc get injured but then I think with the others we have in the squad, we could afford to switch up the formation and perhaps revert back to having a proper striker. In regards to Ade, I appreciate that obviously regardless of form, defenders will of course always need to be on their toes but I've just failed to see anything positive Ade has contributed, I can't remember the last time he pulled a defender out of position for someone else to do wonders. It's always been Bale magic or a team move he weren't involved in. At present, I really believe that Ade is having a negative effect on us at the moment and Defoe's return couldn't have come quick enough.
Not in a month of sundays would he join us. By all accounts he can pick between Utd and Bayern. We're not there.....yet
With all the talk of City replacing Dzeko we could do alot worse than sign him. We might even be able to get city to pay half his wages! I agree re Germany, their league is on the up, but it is not affluent. There must be lots more Holtby's and Berbatovs lurking in their somewhere, and I suspect that is why Freund is with us.
It'll be interesting to see what happens with Lewandowski, he looks Bayern bound but I'm not sure Guardiola would want him over his current strikers, especially if he wants to sign Suarez. I think he might actually end up at Madrid. He played for Dortmund the otherday and did well scoring 2 goals but missed 3 or 4 great chances for a hattrick. Kiessling would be a great signing, Leverkusen like to counter and he generally keeps up well with their attacks and also has a big aerial presence. The only draw back is that he'd probably cost a lot.
SoS - "I can't remember the last time he pulled a defender out of position for someone else to do wonders." ...err! Sunday just gone, his run pulled Vermaelen out the way and occupied his attention for Bale to romp through.
