International Thread Part Trois

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I'd be perfectly happy for Rooney to be left behind (though I of late absolutely think he is important to the England team for how he occupies opponents due to what he can do on his day if left alone - and the importance he has politically, to sponsors, FIFA, and the FA, is inversely related to the size of Hodgson's balls, thus meaning he will be chosen) and move forward with this young exciting side, but don't expect this team to go further than usual in the tournament. This is not an England mope, just a reality check. This result (not the performance) was the worst thing that could happen before the Euros. England fans kidding themselves again. This is an institution much like, say, the House of Commons, and it has ingrained institutional norms and behaviours that do not produce tournament victors. In my opinion (important to say this is an opinion), this is another false dawn. I'm as gutted as anyone when England go out of a tournament. At least we can get excited about watching some of the individuals selected, and let's hope we go far... no one should expect it, though.
 
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If Rooney is fit, you surely would want him in the squad. Germany keep lots of their older players in their experienced side, whereas in England we have a fixation with bringing in new players (for the media to shoot down!) all of the time. Sometimes players are there for a reason, wholesale changes all the time will not help. We now have a decent core of young hungry players.
 
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fatletiss said:
I realise what you meant and I agree... But as an England fan, the laughing at his inclusion will go wrong!! :emoticon-0148-yes:
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When I was a football fan, and not just a Saints fan, I had a healthy enthusiasm for all things football. Which included being interested in the fortunes of the England [and Italian] team. But England's mediocrity and the managers chosen to lead the team [baffles me to this day why Brian Clough wasn't] meant that I finally healed over and went and did something more interesting instead. So these days I laugh at these England experts who think players like Wilshere are worth more than 3 seconds consideration instead of becoming frustrated at their blinkered stupidity. Don't get me wrong, I think Hodgson is a fine manager. But along with other England managers, once he was appointed, he seemed to get an overdose of loyalty.
 
TheSecondStain said:
What did I say? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35908204
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It is a slightly tricky one in that at what point do you say that Rooney isn't just out of form and has actually declined as a player and won't get back to what he was a few years ago. I personally think he (like a lot of players who start playing regular first team football in their teens) peaked at about 24 and was in decline when other players hit their "prime".

Personally I wouldn't take him, because for all of the "experience" chat about having him around the squad I think it could be more detrimental having him around the squad if he isn't playing because he wouldn't be happy about that. Better to just leave him out completely in my eyes.
 
Saintmagic said:
It is a slightly tricky one in that at what point do you say that Rooney isn't just out of form and has actually declined as a player and won't get back to what he was a few years ago. I personally think he (like a lot of players who start playing regular first team football in their teens) peaked at about 24 and was in decline when other players hit their "prime".

Personally I wouldn't take him, because for all of the "experience" chat about having him around the squad I think it could be more detrimental having him around the squad if he isn't playing because he wouldn't be happy about that. Better to just leave him out completely in my eyes.
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I agree. As I said, England managers, this one included, are too loyal. Rooney has done reasonably well in qualification. He busts a gut, there's no denying, but when the team actually look and play better without him that's when the reasoning becomes obvious. And this hasn't been an overnight thing. The England team have looked better without Rooney as far back as Rickie Lambert making his England debut, for example. Prior to that he was barely ever substituted. Every time Rooney has left the field the balance of the team has improved. That's not Rooney's fault. That's merely the reason why you play one player over another. Which is why I wouldn't bother wasting a place on him either. Unfortunately, I think he will be fit [I don't wish him ill] and Hodgson will take him and screw up the balance of the side and they'll fail.

Good job I have a second team. :)
 
I'm not sure which is more frustrating where England are concerned - the incessant hype of the tabloid press, or the relentless negativity of the average England fan. We finally have a promising young team worthy of getting excited about. Yes, we'll probably find a way of screwing it up - we always have done in the past - but for the first time since the 2002 World Cup I'm actually looking forward to seeing how an England side does. Of course, it helps that I don't read the tabloid press. A glance at the headlines of the Sun or the Mail on any given day (front or back pages) is enough to convince me that the gutter press is one rotten institution incapable of producing anything decent. But that's anothrr story.
 
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Archers Road said:
We finally have a promising young team worthy of getting excited about. Yes, we'll probably find a way of screwing it up - we always have done in the past - but for the first time since the 2002 World Cup I'm actually looking forward to seeing how an England side does.
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They'll probably screw it up by putting Rooney back in the team. Maybe Lampard and Gerrard could go along too!

Seriously though, I think they have to let Rooney go now. I know he scores goals but we have never been successful in competitions in which he has featured. I'm not wanting to open the , "Is he overrated debate?" but what I would say is that whenever Rooney plays it always seems to be about him and not the team. I know that that it is probably more the fault of journalists than him but it happens nonetheless. At last we seem to have a team where they all respect each other, no-one taking star billing etc (they need to tone down all the stuff about Alli or he could get a bit above himself).

I cannot believe anyone would even be considering Wilshire, fit or not. He was never good enough for England and certainly should be way down the pecking order now. I hate to say it but Lallana looked good against Germany and with Barkley and Drinkwater to bring in as well there is a lot of talent there plus some good variety depending on the situation.
 
We all need to get perspective about England (with apologies to those who have :)). We almost always qualify for tournaments....that makes us a pretty good team. We should get through the group stages....disappointing if we don't. And I agree the last World Cup was well below where we should be. It was a big disappointment we didn't win in 1996....that was our best chance (twenty years ago<yikes>). Roy (or any English manager) is trying to pick players from a league full of foreigners.....as few English players play abroad. For a while there has been a dearth of top players....now there may be a light at the end of the tunnel....possibly. I want us to play well and see where that gets us.
 
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If Rooney is fit then he should go imo. Experience is an under-rated quality in this country. I'm not saying he should start, but i've seen nothing from this guy in his career to suggest that this would be an issue for Rooney himself and that it would cause an issue. This is a man who has routinely played out of position for club and country. His game may even benefit from not being the centre of attention.

The other argument for Rooney, is who do you take instead? Kane & Vardy are the inform pair, Sturridge for his injury woes is looking top class at the moment, but we're going to take at least four strikers and I see no one else with a better shout.
 
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Unless Rooney is keeping out a red hot striker, he should go. I don't like the guy much, but he has always tried his best in poorish sides where he can't concentrate on his own game. If he has a fault, he tries to do everyone's job....mainly because they aren't doing them. He is England through and through....I'd swear he'd play in goal if asked. A previous manager said of him that when there was a problem at RB, a young Rooney said 'I can play there.' Got to be in the squad.
 
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I think that Rooney is a good and hard-working player, and have no qualms with him being in the squad.

The issue is that he is unstoppable, despite the fact that we now have better players who offer more than him. Roy always has to shoehorn Rooney in, no matter the cost to the team. If he was to rest him and use him as an impact sub like he should have at the World Cup, no one would even be suggesting dropping Rooney. Rooney has unfairly become a scapegoat, as he is not THAT bad, it's just everyone hates the unwavering loyalty to him over better players.
 
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Lff said:
They'll probably screw it up by putting Rooney back in the team. Maybe Lampard and Gerrard could go along too!

Seriously though, I think they have to let Rooney go now. I know he scores goals but we have never been successful in competitions in which he has featured. I'm not wanting to open the , "Is he overrated debate?" but what I would say is that whenever Rooney plays it always seems to be about him and not the team. I know that that it is probably more the fault of journalists than him but it happens nonetheless. At last we seem to have a team where they all respect each other, no-one taking star billing etc (they need to tone down all the stuff about Alli or he could get a bit above himself).

I cannot believe anyone would even be considering Wilshire, fit or not. He was never good enough for England and certainly should be way down the pecking order now. I hate to say it but Lallana looked good against Germany and with Barkley and Drinkwater to bring in as well there is a lot of talent there plus some good variety depending on the situation.
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A fit Wilshere is a shoe in for Euros. Hodgson clearly has his favourites and Wilshere is one of them. He'll take him, that much even I know. :D
 
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