Just to mention two. 1) Becchio is 'not Premiership class'. How the hell would we know? How many minutes he has actually been on the pitch for us? You may be right, and perhaps his natural level is Championship, but it's not fair to judge him when he hasn't been given a fair chance. 2) 'Fox had his chances last year, but didn't take them. He is not Premiership class.' Actually, his first chance, against Peterborough away, he did rather well, but that is conveniently forgotten because it doesn't fit the party line. His next chance, Luton, was a debacle, but he was no worse than anyone else. In contrast with several other players, who get to play no matter how awful they are, he has never been given a fair crack of the whip by Hughton. I'm not suggesting this is any kind of personal vendetta or deliberate unfairness. It is more that Hughton hasn't a clue how to use a player like Fox because he has one way of setting up his teams and one way only. Fox not Premiership class? He was Premiership class the year before (third in POTS, I believe). It's really not fair to malign these players in this way, Superman, just to prove your thesis that CH is a very good manager.
I completely agree where your coming from that we haven't seen these players play enough, but Hughton and coaching staff watch these players in training week-in, week-out and decided they weren't good enough, and I respect their judgement up to a point
I think Fox was out or at least not fully fit due to illness for much of last season. As RM2 said the coaching staff see them in training everyday and maybe they are not showing enough there. I can certainly see why he is unwilling to play Fox as he certainly has his limitations. With regards to Becchio, I would of agreed with you last season and questioned why he was not played. But this season he has spent money on 2 strikers clearly looking at them to be the first choices. Someone has to be last pick and certainly their record at past clubs suggests they deserve to be ahead of him.
Can't understand the fox criticism personally, he never got a proper run in any of hughtons teams ever. You can't expect someone to come in cold to an experimental cup team and perform as a premiership world beater. Horrible management from hughton to fringe players that weren't in his first draft plans must be so demoralising for those affected
david fox has ended up at barnsley at the bottom of the championship. becchio is wanted by middlesbrough. premier league clubs are clamouring for both players it seems... frankly, i find the becchio thing ridiculous. why are you a better judge of a players ability than hughton and his team? the fact he is deemed not good enough seems to upset a few fans but they have absolutely no knowledge of the situation at all. as for fox, anyone who knows me knows he was one of my favourite players during the lambert era. i praised him when others ignored him. however, he has never been the same player, for whatever reason, since his illness and he is hardly setting the world alight at the moment. let's throw surman in too shall we? another of my 'faves' but again, better players come in and he is slips down the pecking order. as it happens he started last season under hughton, played nearly every game. unfortunately we didn't win any and as soon as he was dropped we went ten unbeaten. that's just how it goes. i wish people would stop clinging to players. i've seen it happen with ayala too. 'he's the answer'. well no, he isn't. if he was he wouldn't be continually loaned out. its all very well saying fox came third in POTY but snodgrass came second last season and some people want him out of the club, let alone the side!! players form goes up and down, some players never recover to their best. in my opinion, david fox had a great period, maybe 18 months at norwich and then the club outgrew him. these things happen. its not a sleight against the player to say he's been superseded by better players. becchio was a bit of a panic buy when the hooper deal buggered up. it might have paid off, but it didn't. that's the problem with gambles...
was it horrible management when lambert threw hoolahan into the reserves when we were in league one? no, it wasn't. it was partly because he didn't fit in with how he wanted to set up and also to give him a kick up the arse and see if he responded. have fox or becchio responded in the same way? why has it got to be bad management? again - clear agenda against the manager. you have no idea why these players aren't playing for us
I agree with Supers on this for the main part. A manager will be working with the players each day and have a better feel or knowledge of what their likely form would be. However I would also expand the point to say that ultimately in fox's case form or chances were not the whole issue. CH has an idea of what he requires from a player in order to play in his prefered system. Players like Fox, Surman and even Hoolihan lack the physicallity and as such rightly or wrongly will get less of a look. If what supers says about Becchio's fitness is true then add being fat to the list of no no's. Was it glandular fever that Fox had? Thats one of the rumours that went round. If it was that would explain a lot as that could have him never return to previous physical highs. Bah!
I'd forgotten about Surman - how is he getting on at Bournemouth? Can we recall him at all? If we pick up any more midfield injuries we could really do with him as an extra body at least
it was indeed glandular fever i do tend to agree with you about the physical traits although hoolahan was a key component when we were playing very well midway through last season and surman, as i said, began every game early on under hughton, only dropping out when results picked up. fox wasn't even available last season until november (correct me if i'm wrong) but peterborough aside, never made an impact (and even in that game it pretty much passed him by, but did make one great pass to assist a goal). its not black and white as some people seem to make out. if these players were performing well in training, trust me, they would tend to feature in the first team squad more often. that's how it works.
no idea if he's got a recall clause - i would hope so - started off quite well but been on the bench of late
While I agree with most of the above, I would say a couple of things in Fox's defence just so as not to over-egg his decline... Barnsley's form has been improved since he arrived and they have been more solid. Also, Fox's position and style mean that he is the sort of player who is only as good as the players around him - he is reactive, not proactive. I think Fox can and did make the step up when the players around him are better, but he is not the sort of player that wins matches all on his own, so it is inevitable that in a Barnsley team he won't necessarily obviously thrive - however, it's pretty telling that since he arrived he has played a lot and they have had (i) a narrow loss to Leicester in his first match; (ii) three draws and a win since then (interspersed with an expected, though not embarrassing, 0-2 loss to QPR).
good post. i watched him against ipswich last friday. granted the opposition wasn't much cop (i'm not joking for our country cousins benefit here - they really were useless) but he fitted quite neatly into the barnsley side. playing in the holding role he was able to play it simple which is when he is at his best, keeping possession ticking over. he's like a metronome. apart from the odd set piece he offers little else but its nice to watch although it is often sideways stuff. but lets be serious - this was a very, very poor championship match and fox did not stand out at all. he's a good player - always has been. is he good enough for the premier league anymore? not for me he isn't.
I've personally got no agenda against hughton... When have I ever expressed an agenda? I just find it harsh on players to not get a chance when poor performances from players in the team keep getting picked. A la Howson at the beginning of last season. I think this a flaw in his management style, of which I have been supportive of. I do think the way Lambert treated the doc and wes was horrible, Lambert was very clear how he wanted a 4-4-2 and wes forced him to change his hand, it worked out in that case as they both came back and made team of the year in league 1. But saying that lambert has also killed off players perhaps unjustly, stephen warnock and alan hutton before he'd even put on his villa tracksuit. I see this as horrible management as if you were in the position of david fox, having come off the back of a highly successful season finishing 3rd in player of the season and securing a new contract at the club to see floundering performances from people in your position throughout the season with the 10 game run out of it and not even given a chance. Howson was afforded more chances than he deserved, I also thought Johnson looked sluggish and his passing deteriorated as he was an automatic pick at the end of last year. I may have no idea why they aren't playing but I can only judge on what I see, and what i've seen is a lack chance to the squad with determination to use a set plan and formation, a lack of fluidity, decisions made before the game a lack of feel for the situation and blind faith put in some players. I feel tremendously sorry for david fox and becchio, I look no further than the tweets from other squad members sent to fox after his loan signing. Also not sure why anyone would want a player on loan who has played a handful of games in the last year so to use his loan destination as an excuse isn't a strong argument in his scenario.
On a half decent day David Fox can pass the ball. On any day, Bradley Johnson can't - and yet was ever present last season? Que?
good post billy, to be fair. don't get me wrong, i too feel sorry for fox in particular (not becchio - i have no attachment to him) but there will be reasons why these players are not deemed good enough and they will be more accurate than anyone who posts on here. sometimes a manager has a gut feeling. that might be the case with fox but seeing as he gave him a new contract extension when he first joined and signed becchio, that cannot be the case. i do wonder whether some kind of legend grows about players when they are left out for a sustained period of time. fox seemed to become a much better player during the time he was out of the side. he was always pretty good but he's even better now! now becchio is being lauded as a 'top player' for us, someone who could make the difference but isn't being played because the manager hates him or some other sinister reason. i find that odd. becchio has basically been on the verge of leaving since the summer. just as some fans have to have a 'boo boy', they also have to have a 'favourite' who is badly treated by all and sundry for no apparent reason. very very odd
and bradley johnson was voted what, 3rd in player of the year? and now he can't get in the team. why? because he's been overtaken by better players.
feel sorry for them ffs. I'd quite happily run around a training pitch for a few hours a day and then sit on my arse all weekend and pick up a lovely pay packet.
Everything else aside, with the way we have played in our last 2 games I see absolutely no reason not to give Becchio or Fox ago in the Liverpool match since we have nothing to lose (I think Fox's loan expires soon, not sure)
I'm not agreeing word for word, but (injuries aside - of which we have many. Tettey out until new year ) why stick rigidly to a set team every week when several are underperforming? Fresh impetus, maybe. Hell's teeth, we need some impetus from somewhere - and pretty damned soon
