How do you rank previous World Champions?

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by DHCanary, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    13,093
    Likes Received:
    2,031
    This is similar to how I think about it too. This season Vettel has had memorable mistakes, Hamilton has had memorable performances. His quali laps in Melbourne and Singapore are going to be remembered for a while. Meanwhile, Vettel's standout moment for this season will either be spinning when he's made contact, or crashing in Germany.

    Vettel is clearly a quick driver, but it's really hard to say whether he belongs in the true top tier of F1 legends. He drove excellently for his 4 titles, but teammates are an important test. Beat Kimi and Webber, but Ricciardo comfortably outscored him in 2014.

    If I were to rank champions:
    Tier 1: Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Hamilton, Alonso, Clark
    Tier 2: Mansell, Lauda, Hakkinen, Stewart, Piquet, Hunt
    Tier 3: Rosberg, Vettel, Button, Kimi
    Tier 4: Villeneuve
     
    #1
  2. happyal

    happyal Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2011
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    116
    That's a bit weird, as you have Hamilton in Tier 1, but 2 drivers who beat him in the same car as Tier 3. Not saying you are wrong, but for myself it looks weird.
     
    #2
  3. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    13,093
    Likes Received:
    2,031
    Yeah, particularly in the context of having said Vettel's record against team-mates counts against him! That's very much a gut feeling call. I'd be interested to see how others would rate them all.
     
    #3
  4. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    10,177
    Likes Received:
    1,256
    Tier God: Mansell,
    Tier 1: Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Hamilton, Alonso, Clark
    Tier 2: Lauda, Hakkinen, Stewart, Piquet, Hunt
    Tier 3: Rosberg, Vettel, Button, Kimi
    Tier 4: Villeneuve

    Seriously though, I'd have Vettel well above T3.
     
    #4
  5. Number 1 Jasper

    Number 1 Jasper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    13,914
    Likes Received:
    4,836

    Too tempting <laugh>;)
     
    #5
  6. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    10,177
    Likes Received:
    1,256
    Give in to temptation... even if it gets you a slap in the gonads. :p
     
    #6
    El_Bando and Number 1 Jasper like this.
  7. TopClass

    TopClass Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    7,825
    Likes Received:
    1,281
    Always an interesting debate!

    Here’s something that I always think about when watching the 80s and early 90s:

    So often, people rate it as 1)Senna, 2)Prost, 3)Mansell- in that order.

    Prost of course landed 4 world titles, Senna 3, and Mansell 1.

    Yet, remove a puncture in 86 and a Stewards enquiry in 89, and the titles look like this:

    Senna 4
    Prost 2
    Mansell 2

    I see that as a much truer reflection of their talent show over that period, particularly given how Prost played the politics (he was brought over to Ferrari and given no.1 over Mansell, who to his credit always said Ferrari did things very honourably and paid up his original agreement), and of course Mansell had to fight for his right against Nelson Piquet.

    Thinking about it now- are we seeing something similar?

    Hamilton, the natural talent that produces magical laps a la Senna. The pure racer and the fastest over one lap. (Senna)

    Vettel, the measured, quick champion who engineers himself into dominant team positions and wins well from the front when his main rival isn’t pressuring him, ruthlessly winning races. (Prost)

    Ricciardo, magical drives and brave overtakes when the cards drop right, but rarely getting the dominant car that he needs to win a maiden world title, leaving fans wondering if he will ever get one (Mansell)

    As those three try to find their roads to glory, the next era waits in the wings in the form of young, raw, but standout driver Max Verstappen (Schumacher)

    A romantic view I’m sure, but fascinating to me nonetheless.
     
    #7
    cosicave likes this.
  8. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    10,177
    Likes Received:
    1,256
    Give Mansell his '93 Williams back and take it of the the mooching Prost:

    Senna 4
    Mansell 3
    Prost 1
     
    #8
  9. cosicave

    cosicave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    5,139
    Likes Received:
    497
    An interesting idea DHC. It probably warrants a whole thread of its own, but since we're here…
    As I'm sure we'll all agree, it is impossible to compare drivers from different eras. I was recently asked essentially the same question, so I'll try to regurgitate what I remember of my response.

    Trying to fit your ranking system, drivers within tiers are in no particular order but I've chosen from competitors of Grands Prix without restriction to F1 – which began in 1950. I'm sure I've missed out at least a few important names. Another factor which colours any such ranking is 'contemporary popularity,' which tends to favour drivers known to the voting audience who more naturally admire those they see (i.e. more emphasis on the recent past), which in turn depends upon how well-known the sport is itself.

    Tier 1: Clark (rated by all his peers to be the best at the time, bar none); Fangio; Hamilton (close to being viewed in a similar same light as Clark by his peers who in this day and age are more reluctant to say so); Nuvolari; Senna (sometimes a little over-rated as THE all time number one, perhaps?); Moss (deserved at least a couple of titles); Ascari (too often forgotten); Prost.
    Tier 2: Alonso; Mansell; Lauda; Hakkinen; Stewart; Hill G.; Schumacher M. (vastly over-rated: 7 titles is way above what he deserved); Hawthorn; Gonzalez; Rindt.
    Tier 3: Piquet Snr.; Andretti; Button; Hill D. (vastly under-rated: one title is at least one fewer than deserved); Hill P.; Rosberg N.; Villeneuve G.; Vettel; McLaren; Brabham; Cevert; Surtees; Hunt; Patresi; Fittipaldi; Gurney; Räikkönen –just! (probably one of the luckiest to be crowned WDC).
    Tier 4: Roughly 25% of all other competitors. This certainly includes the likes of (off the top of my head)Montoya; Peterson; Regazzoni; Reutemann; Berger; Ickx; Alesi; Kubiça; Coulthard; Villeneuve J; Frentzen; Brundle; Herbert; Heidfeld; Peroni.

    [Edited to include someone I'll admit I tend to overlook through dislike: Piquet Snr].
    :emoticon-0181-fubar:bandit:
     
    #9
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
    Dell Boy likes this.
  10. cosicave

    cosicave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    5,139
    Likes Received:
    497
    Could I humbly suggest a moderator cuts the last few posts into a thread of its own? It's a stand-out topic to those who may browse as non-members.
     
    #10

  11. Number 1 Jasper

    Number 1 Jasper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    13,914
    Likes Received:
    4,836

    Nobody ever mentions Pironi , I really rated him .

    I know he was blamed for GV’s death by many , but I don’t agree . And he was so close to the title .
     
    #11
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  12. Viva_Giggsy

    Viva_Giggsy Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2015
    Messages:
    709
    Likes Received:
    153
    M Schumacher overrated lol and Hill was lucky to win the title in 96,needed team orders to be JV who is underrated, typical of this forum to overrate the English drivers.
     
    #12
    cosicave likes this.
  13. St. Slicks of Stoneham

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2011
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    15
    A couple of drivers who often get overlooked - Dan Gurney, all round great guy who won races in many series. John Surtees who achieved the remarkable double, also a great guy.
     
    #13
  14. Westlake33

    Westlake33 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Messages:
    4,809
    Likes Received:
    908
    Hamilton above Schumacher? Can essentially ignore this post
     
    #14
  15. Westlake33

    Westlake33 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Messages:
    4,809
    Likes Received:
    908
    For people moaning re Prost

    Would have won 88 but for dropping results, outscored senna
    89, well if senna hadn’t broken the agreement at imola,,,, the crash wouldn’t have happened in Japan

    Prost would have won either 81/82 but his Renault kept breaking down. Think 81 off top of head.

    Never gets the respect he should Alain. The most complete driver to my knowledge. So quick when trying to go slow - takes some doing that.

    Michael is my fav, but the team mate / orders side of thing unfortunately a black mark.

    Senna also class. These 3 the best in my lifetime by a mile.

    Fangio/ Clark surely the best pre these.

    As for Hamilton, please... beaten by rosberg and helped by reliability/ extra races era. Good, but no better than Alonso.

    Kimi the most overrated ever.
     
    #15
  16. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    7,281
    Likes Received:
    1,015
    Hill lucky to win the title and JV underrated <laugh> <laugh> <laugh>

    Hill should have had 2 WDC's but for Benetton/Schuey's antics in 94 which really should have had them thrown out all together. FIA proved this in 1997 but were too weak to take an actual title away for the same move.

    Go and read a book on F1 and come back to us.


    Most of this I'd agree with. Prost's early years were certainly brilliant. Some of his drives up through the field in the 80's when he chose race setups in quali to make him quicker on the Sunday showed a real intelligent racer. Unfortunately his politics later on did smear his character a bit, much the same accusation that could be put on Alonso too in a way.

    I'd rate Hamilton above Alonso, purely on the basis that Alonso is only 2 WDC and none in the last 12 years, whereas Hamilton is probably going to be 5 WDC's. Alonso has been his own worst enemy and the fact that we think he should have more WDC's than he has, does really put him 1 tier down from the top. Unsurprisingly, that's the one that generates the most controversy on here! :)
     
    #16
  17. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    10,177
    Likes Received:
    1,256
    Lousy in the wet... so not that complete.
     
    #17
    dhel likes this.
  18. cosicave

    cosicave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    5,139
    Likes Received:
    497
    Well, not ignoring the post must have been an effort, so thanks; I appreciate it.

    Anyway, yes.
    –Ranking Hamilton above Schumacher was one of the easiest decisions.

    In my haste, I think I may have got a couple of others out of place, but certainly not this.
     
    #18
    dhel likes this.
  19. cosicave

    cosicave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    5,139
    Likes Received:
    497
    Very.
    –However, this is not to say he wasn't brilliant. He was. And he was outstanding when he first arrived on the scene.

    The point I'm making is that he is often over-rated in comparison to others – some of whom were (or are) even more brilliant – which is the thrust of this thread.
    Similarly, Damon Hill's achievements are all too often overlooked in comparison to others.

    Ranking drivers against one another is all about making comparisons. I'm sorry if my assessment of Schumacher relative to others irks you, but yes, he is all too often over-rated. [Again, I'd like to emphasis this does not mean I think he wasn't very good]. Ha! –Some misguided folks even hail him as the greatest of all time! I confess that never fails to amuse as much as astonish me.

    The general public were sold a dummy…
     
    #19
    dhel likes this.
  20. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    13,093
    Likes Received:
    2,031
    I was listening to a podcast recently which raised the question of just how many drivers would have been capable of winning the 2000-2004 titles in that Ferrari, with a patsy for a team-mate?

    I don't think anyone would say Hakkinen couldn't have. Montoya maybe? Raikkonen, Coulthard? Perhaps even someone like Heidfeld? (Who incidentally, ranks insanely highly whenever I see a statistical analysis of F1 drivers ability, he's regularly Top 25).

    Incidentally, one analysis puts Gurney as the 14th best of all time - another puts him 43rd. Both articles are a few years out of date, but both worth a read.

    The top 10 according to the Sheffield Academics (from 2016):
    1) Fangio
    2) Prost
    3) Schumacher
    4) Clark
    5) Senna
    6) Alonso
    7) Piquet
    8) Stewart
    9) Fittipaldi
    10) Vettel
    Others worth mentioning:
    12) Hamilton
    16) Button
    32) Danny Ric
    34) Kimi
    40) Nico Rosberg

    And F1 Metrics (2014):

    1) Clark
    2) Stewart
    3) Alonso
    4) Schumacher
    5) Fangio
    6) Hunt
    7) Nico Rosberg
    8) Vettel
    9) Ascari
    10) Lauda
    Others:
    12) Hamilton
    14) Kimi
    16) Prost
    17) Frentzen, just because...
    19) Senna
    20) Button

    The full lists are on those links.
     
    #20

Share This Page