After this Everton match, when another poor decision has cost us 2 more points, I can't help but wonder if the idea that these decisions do even it out is correct or not. So I've decided to do a recap. I am going to be completely unbiased here. I can only cover incidents of major controversy, so this won't be perfect but I feel we have lost a lot of points this season. I don't think I've missed any... Game: Wigan (away) Incident: Penalty We must all remember this one. Ritchie de Laet makes a tiny bit of contact with a Wigan player outside the box, he falls over and then Ben Watson scores the penalty. Effect on game: Assuming Wigan didn't score the free-kick, for all their domination of the game they would probably have lost. Cost us 2 points. Game: Stoke (home) Incident: Penalty and red card Again, outside the box and minimal contact. This is pretty much confirmed by the fact that Barnett's red was overturned on appeal! Effect on game: The penalty was saved, but we played the rest of the game on the backfoot. It's not unreasonable to assume that Stoke wouldn't of had that late equaliser had we had 11 men on the pitch. 2 more points robbed. Game: Chelsea (away) Incident: Not sending of Fernando Torres and penalty/red card Torres made two bookable offences, so he should have gone. The penalty was stonewall though, no disputing it. Effect on game: Hard to say. If Torres is gone at 1 - 1 then Ramirez may never have been sent through to win the penalty and get Ruddy sent off (Which may in turn have caused us to lose our next match). But this is clutching straws a little, but I feel Chelsea would have struggled to win if it was 11 vs 10 men, but I'll still say they would have won the game just about. No change here, but it's not unthinkable we would have drawn or even won! Game: WBA (home) Incident: Penalty and failed penalty/red card West Brom got a ludicrous penalty as soft as you ever will see. Justice was done when it was saved, but then Tamas elbowed Vaughan in the face. The fact that he was banned after the match, suggests had the referee seen it, it would have been a penalty and a red card. Assuming we scored it, we would then of had a real chance for a winner with a man advantage. Effect on game: I'll say it cost us a point, but in truth it could have been more. Game: Bolton (away) Incident: Penalty, red card Bolton won a penalty that for me was undebatable. The only controversy here surround Klasnic's dismissal. I remember a MotD pundit saying 'he has to go because of aggressive conduct' but I think it's silly. Tierney made a prat of himself and it should never have been even a booking. Effect on game: Bolton may well have been able to clinch a draw with 11 men, like so many of these things you can't say for sure. but seeing I've been lenient with the two games before, I'll say we could have held on. No change here. Game: Man United (away) Incident: Corner The ball clearly went off Wayne Rooney, but the referee awarded a corner which Manchester United scored. Effect on game: Man Utd would have won anyway, so none. Game: Blackburn (home) Incident: Penalty Never in a million years was it a penalty. It struck the Blackburn player's hand, but he would never have got out of the way of it. Effect on game: Holt scores the penalty to give a point Norwich never deserved. A poor decision gives us some points for the first time. Game: Man City (away) Incident: Free-kick I remember seeing the ref give the free-kick, when it should have been ours. Effect on game: Nasri scores after a defensive mix-up. Fair to say Man City would have won anyway, but I have to cover all the incidents! Game: Newcastle (home) Incident: Red card No debating this one. Dan Gosling was walking as soon as he made the challenge. Effect on game: It was correct anyway, and we would have won without it probably, because it was late in the game anyway and we were winning. Game: QPR (away) Incident: Red card Joey Barton was sent off with QPR in the ascendancy. I don't blame Johnson for this, because I would want to get my head out the way too if Joey made to headbutt me, but he was sent off on Johnson's reaction, and it was a poor decision. Effect on game: I think QPR would have won this to be honest. They were in control up to then, so three points gained. Game: Swansea (away) Incident: Penalty No doubt this one was a penalty. Effect on game: Swansea pull one back, but we win still anyway. Game: Stoke (away) Incident: That throw in Ball clearly came off a Stoke player, but they are given the throw and score. Poor defending, but still shouldn't have happened. Effect on game: Again, robbed of points vs Stoke by the referee. We may not have deserved it, but we would have had a point otherwise. Game: Newcastle (away) Incident: Failed penalty A Newcastle player took a shot and it hits a sliding Elliott Bennett's hand - his hand is raised. Effect on game: None, because Newcastle would have won anyway, just they should have had a penalty too. Game: Everton (home) Incident: Need I say? Gave Everton a goal with his bizzare decision (Or lack of) but those of you saying Baines should have been off, get a grip. He definatley shouldn't have. Effect on game: Robbed of another 2 points. So, firstly it is obvious that alot more decisions have gone against us then for us (Correct, incorrect and that should have been given but were not). In fact, I'd say we've only had one penalty denied (West Brom) that should have been, which was evened out by unfortunate Blackburn. However, we have had a lot of incorrect decisions go against us and these have cost us points. I have tried very hard to be unbiased, and I make it that we should have 4 more points then we do now! This might not sound like a lot but at time of writing this would have put us seventh*! And also, as I have said, I was being very impartial, some of you who read more optimistically into the games had these incidents not occurred may find we should have even more. *I couldn't be bothered to work out the actual table, because these decisions have given some teams points they shouldn't have, but we would definatley be 7th.
Fairly decent post, DM, and for the record, I thought that you were definitely worth a point at Old Trafford, but... The thing about decisions evening themselves out, is that all teams supporters (with the exception of Man Ure), could possibly claim a similar set of poor decisions costing them points, something you haven't factored into your post! Nevertheless, wumming aside, you've done well this season and you'll stay up!
On the first point, finishing your chances is a part of the game and that's something Man United did alot better then us - and Everton today, even if one of them was a bit silly. But on your second point, I have included EVERY decision that I think has had a big effect on ALL of games and have done this impartially. So, yes Blackburn probably could and should have had a fair few more points, but I have been impartial in the Norwich games. As I have stressed, it is possible that we could have missed a penalty in game X had it been given but with the estimated I made if anything I was pessimistic about what might have happened. If I did this for every team in the league, I still think we would be around 7thish.
I agree welly, many teams have had poor decisions affect their points tally. Sometimes bad decisions actually galvanise your team and lead them to a draw or even a win. Every action has a consequence, by the possible outcomes are endless. However, when will refs have to face up to bad decisions. If a goal is ruled out for offside when it wasn't, on the last game of the season which was ultimately a poor decision that cost a place in the league or the title....how long before a team tries a law suit...? Not something I would like to see happen but you just never know. Bosman made a game changing rule come into effect through the courts...how long before somebody decides they want to try that? Assuming they probably can take it to court under some crazy human rights law.
I invite you to actually suggest I am incorrect in my analysis of any of these incident, but funnily enough it is your team I have more pity for at the moment! 11th in the prem of 15th in the champ... tough choice!
Another incident that perhaps earned us three points was the first goal against Wolves the other week. Jackson was offside before he played the ball through for Holt's first goal.
Well, firstly that would have earned us 2 not 3 points, but I watched that game on TV and I distinctly remember he WAS onside, and the replay showed that!
It's already happened - look at Leeds... twice... there was the offside goal that cost them the first division in the early 1970's and poor refereeing cost them four place in the Premiership, which led to the financial collapse and relegation that they are stumbling to currently remedy. There are other examples. As for the law, I doubt it would get anywhere, unless something criminal or corrupt could be proved, the case would perhaps go to the court of arbitration for sport and the best that could be acieved would be some form of compensation.
Three points overall. He was offside when the ball was played and was in onside position when he first touched the ball so he was offside.
Well, I'm pretty sure he was onside, but I'm not here to debate one decision; the point I was making is that I feel we have been a little hard done by this season. Equally, I could say for Barton and Klasnic red cards that there was an aggressive intent so they should have stood, but I am being reasonable.
I'm sorry, DM, I misread your OP, I actually thought that you had done this! So what do you base your theory on that you would still be around 7th if you had? Guesswork? Not saying that you wouldn't be, but it would be a mammoth task to analyse every prem match, trying to make an objective decision on whether a referee's decision was right or wrong, taking into account the split second timing a ref has to make that decision, and then projecting the effect of that decision onto the possible result of that match! (And even then your results would be open to interpretation and debate!) But that's what you need to do before you can come out with such a bold statement as you have in your OP!!
Like I said just a load of self pitying bollocks! If you are talking about momentus mistakes being made lets talk about the Chelsea v Wigan game today. The assistant referee allowed Chelsea to score when Ivanovic was clearly 3 yards offside! This could well ultimately lead to Wigan's relegation.
Decisions only matter at the time really. I wanted to chuck my laptop out of the window after their 2nd goal today but on reflection you should play to the whistle and not stand there appealing. I think you're right in questioning the officials. I always defended them but when you see Champions league with5 and they still don't give penalties then I can't defend them any more. I watched the Reading v Leeds game yesterday and the ref was 10 yards away and staring straight at Becchio who had his arms round Pearces throat. He couldn't have missed it but ignored it. But a minute later managed to give a purile infringement a free kick and a lecture. Capn Baines had been booked today hadn't he yet late on he cynically steps in front of I believe Bennet but I could be wrong and the ref gives a free kick not an indirect one and ignores the booking. Make refs professional and it will improve the game they said. Bollocks, it has made it worse as they are scared of losing a full time job. Jack Taylor gave a penalty in the 1st minute of a World Cup Final before the opposition had touched the ball. Clive Thomas disallowed a Brazil goal as he said the game had finished. Todays bottle dropping lot would have run a mile. Now apparently they need technology to help them out. Bullshit. Just a proper back bone would go a long way.
The thing with these mistakes is there is no need for them, a cricket style review system controlled by the managers would remove these stupid mistakes. The argument against it is that it removes these type of debates. However Test Rugby still has all the debates over challenged decisions like Strettles nearly try.
