After nearly 4 years of being bleed dry by Hicks & Gillette, do the events of the last 6 months give Liverpool fans real hope for a brighter future? The youth set up finally seems to be producing quality youngsters again, new owners with a clear objective to return the club to former glories, and a manager who's as passionate about the club as any kopite. Are the signs there that finally after 4 years of abject misery, we are finally coming back into the sunlight?
We have a huge lot of talent - my worry is that we miss out on some of the talent and they go some smaller team to find their spark. If at the age of 18 they are still in the reserves and haven't been shipped out already then I think a point should be made of them being loaned out to clubs where they will get match experience. 19-20 should be the first team tryout age in my opinion; if they're not ready by 20-21 then I don't think we should keep them around. Yes, there are players like Drogba etc.. who get better with age, but i'd rather turn out a potential Drogba when he's 18 than keep him on the books until he's 26-ish.
So you'd have shipped Carra out years ago and got rid of Lucas, too? How many top class 20-21 yr olds are there in the Premier League? There seems to be a modern assumption that overnight sensations are everywhere. Macheda's now out on loan and he was superhyped for a while.
If they're not ready to put into the first team by 21 then no I don't think we should keep them around. I think spearing should have been shipped out last summer. The fact is it's unfair on the player if we keep them that long; not to mention cluttering the wage book and generally halting the further progress of that player. Carra made his debut at 18, so he was obviously ready by 21, Lucas was bought as a 20 year old from Gremio so he was obviously going to be tried in the first team - he wants bought as an academy player... I'm talking about Academy players moving up through the ranks. It's just not fair on them to give them false hope when it's very unlikely if they haven't made their debut by 21 they're probably not going to make it. I'll take Messi as an example; probably the most unlikely player you would have thought to make his first team debut at the age of 16 because he's only 5ft7 and didn't seem to have the physical prowess to keep up with the adults. Now he's 23; made 173 appearances and scored 118 goals. Meanwhile Spearing is 22 and has made 9 appearances and no goals. Yes, there is the argument that obviously Messi is a better player or that they are played in different positions etc.. but the fact is I believe by the age of 21 if you're not ready for the Premier league then you should be sent to another league, because you're unlikely to ever be ready.
Macheda's still 19, and was superhyped cos he scored two goals as a 17 year old, but your point is valid. Personally I think the main thing is for players to continue to show progress - players can go from being squad players to in the first team very late on, and provided they are still putting the effort in they are worth sticking with, rather than trading them in and buying another player who may not turn out to be any better.
Players fall into different categories.Jay Spearing will always be classified as a Liverpool squad player.So there is no chance of him being moved on,He does what it says on the tin.He's like John O Shea and Darren Fletcher and Wes Brown at Man United.Fletcher was 24 before he got a regular run in the Man United team,Wes Brown was 26,O Shea is hitting 30 and still hasn't.Thats the standard where Spearing fits in.The problem concerns the more creative players.The likes of Amoo,Eccleston,and Ince if they don't make the step up in the next year,they won't,they will get overtaken by the new batch,so its up to them to progress.The same applies to Ayala and Wisdom.The hardest position for a young player to make it is as a keeper.Most clubs have an established number 1 and they need experienced back-up for an emergency.
It is difficult to decide which youngsters are capable of making the jump up straight away and which ones need time, the position they play in is also a factor. Only time will tell but i'm sure Kenny will be bringing youngsters through and giving them chances to prove themselves.
I agree with that.There is certain positions that its easier to blood youngsters in.They just need to be mobile and hard-working ie full-back.The centre of midfield is the same.Out wide,They need more than just talent,they need to be developed physically too.Thats why I reckon that Liverpool did the right thing by loaning out Amoo and Eccleston to the lower leagues,let them get kicked at and battered against more experienced pros.Its how they adapt that will show that they are capable of making it.If they can't adapt to the lower leagues they won't adapt at Liverpool.
Brown was 18 in 1998 when he made his debut. The following season in all competitions he chalked up 16 appearance and scored 5 goals. He had to wait to 2000-2001 season when he was 20 to get 36 senior appearances under his belt. He was not 26 when he got a regular run.
He wasn't 26 when he got a regular run,because he still hasn't.He's a squad player.Thats what I said Jay Spearings standard is and this is what it will make it easier for him to stay at the club.Its easier for these types of players to remain at a club than the more creative ones.You just need to work hard and be ultra reliable and step up to the plate when called upon.
Either as you first said Brown got a regular run in the team or as you later said he hasn't got a regular run. Which is it?
Contscrepe. What I said was Brown has made increased appearances since he was 26,But they aren't sustained.He is like as I said the same standard as Jay Spearing,ultra reliable and hard-working.Its the reason he was kept unlike Fraiser Campbell,Craig Cathcart,Danny Higginbottom,Ryan Shawcross over the years.
Brown since 2005-06 season (when he turned 26) had made 151 appearances. From his debut to 2004-05 season he made 162 appearances. Doesn't fit your theory especially when before he was 26 he suffered a number of serious injuries including a torn knee ligaments. If he hadn't these injuries then who knows how many appearances the lad would have had.
To be fair both of you are exagerating your arguments to some extent. Brown, O'Shea and Fletcher were all good enough to make the first team in the early parts of their career, but back then the team wasn't as strong as it has been in recent years - they all made regular appearances between 2003 and 2006 but all fell out of regular selection when replaced by better players. But they're all versatile players who were willing to accept playing a squad role and fight for a regular place, succeeding at times. All good teams need players like that - good enough to play in the top reaches of the PL, but realistic enough to recognise that they won't necessarily be first choice in a title winning team.
Swarbs. Interesting point.Thats the point I was making,the fact that they are ultra reliable and hardworking has kept them there,I did say Jay Spearing is in their standard.Not a world beater,but offers the same level of commitment.
I disagree Swarbs. Brown as you know has suffered from terrible injuries especially in the first few seasons of his career. Ferguson once called Wes the best natural defender in England. Why else over the years did he get angry about Brown's tactics over contract talks? His tackling years ago was superb and still today he has the strength to muscle the opposition off the ball. What impressed me most was his reading of the game when first came into the Utd first team. It was incredible. Alan Hansen a few seasons after his debut said a fully fit Wes Brown was the best CB in the league by far.