I posted this on a thread on OTIB: I was talking about this today in work with fellow City fan; perhaps the standard of the Championship has gone up and is closing the gap between it and the Premiership, or even removed it altogether? I offer as proof the fact that both Hull and Sunderland are struggling and in very real risk of going down into League 1, and Middlesbrough are confounding the pundits and bookies with their perceived 'underachievement' as bookies favourites to bounce straight back up. NONE of the teams from the Prem last year are currently in a top 6 position. Added to that the fact that we, Bristol City, have beaten 3 premiership clubs so far on our League Cup run - with a second-string side, and Wolves took Man City all the way to 90 minutes without them scoring - which no premiership club has managed to do this season. This could possibly arguably suggest that the standard of the top 6 of our league is actually better than the bottom 6 or even 10 of the current Prem (?) Thoughts?
Good thread R&W. The Premier League has polarised even more this season. There used to be three pretty clear "mini-leagues" up there - 1) The super-clubs, about half a dozen or so of them who dominate every year. Leicester was the exception that proves the rule. 2) The middle pack who were perennial clingers on with no real hope of breaking into that top echelon but were relatively safe from relegation. A hoped for Euro spot for next season by default of those above them was the best they could hope for. 3) Then there were the rabble at the bottom which usually included the promoted clubs and few who were lucky not to come down the previous season. We've been there, done that and got the tee shirt. That has changed. It is now a "two league" league where those top clubs are still there contesting the title and European spots, but absolutely everyone else is ****ting themselves about being sucked into a scrap at the bottom. On the other hand I don't think the standard of the Championship has changed much except for a growing realisation amongst clubs that the journey to the promised land will probably be better than the arrival in it. That doesn't mean to say we all don't want to get there because quite apart from the top sides we'll play, the financial rewards that come your way if used sensibly can be life changing for a club.
I'm not so sure about the gap closing but will agree that some of the lower Prem teams are struggling to stay afloat whilst we and others thrive. Are the teams that look like they may drop another division doing something wrong or are they living by the belief that if you spend enough you will succeed? The parachute payments are supposed to offset the relegation blues and yet how much is spent wisely and how much is wasted by new managers promising a rise from the ashes under their regime and disappearing up the back alley when it all goes sideways? Reading the news today about the monies generated by the Prem in TV revenues and the proposal to widen the money scoop by building bigger buckets to scoop up the cash and perhaps the time is nearly upon us when we have to pay to get the football scores. Despite what others might say it is my belief that the scramble for money by the various factions feeding off the game have destroyed the integrity of the game and when I look at the cheats and liars diving all over the place during match time it makes me want to say - why the hell do I bother???
Spot on OS; the old ‘big 4’ have arguably expanded to become a ‘big 6’ which now include Man C and Tottenham. Some may even include Leicester on the back of their fantastic achievement recently - I personally don’t because I see that as a one-off. As for the rest, any of them could be anywhere come the end - I always saw Everton as a ‘safe’ club but this season has thrown doubt on that - and they have rode their luck previously too. I really believe that take right now as a snapshot in time, with current form, all the top 6 teams would survive in the current premiership. Of course things could change; we are only half way through the season and some of us could fall away but right now we are stronger - I would even expand the group to include Leeds too.
The likes of Burnley doing so well this have put pressure on the established big teams and given them a wake up call like Leicester did. Everton were struggling but have now climbed into the top half while the likes of Stoke, Swansea, Bournemouth, Palace and Newcastle continue to struggle fairly badly. There is no doubt that it's usually a often a pretty competitive league, but this season who would bet against Man City being champions already ? If we ever get there we will have to look at taking points from the Southamptons of the league as we're unlikely to get any from the Manchester clubs, or Arsenal, Spurs at home or away. There is no integrity left and hasn't been for a long time. As well as the cheats and liars, I'd also like to offer up the Wusses as well. Seeing players already dressed in hats, gloves and thick track suits on handing round a hot water bottle on the subs bench recently to warm their exposed faces made me cringe. How would they have survived snow covered pitches like Wolves and Newcastle used to be in the 1970's with freezing dressing rooms as well. Over paid over pampered idiots.
Remember the days of hoping you didn't have to make a sliding tackle because the frozen stud marks on the pitch would tear your skin off - OUCH. Pampered dorks that need to be sent packing and leave the local hardier lads to take up the slack.
I'm afraid those days are long gone Mike. I used to love winter night matches at the Gate. The 4 magnificent floodlights that you could see from miles away, the air heavy and almost foggy with cigarette smoke drifting around, everybody standing, waiting for the half time scores to be put on the little board labelled A-M or whatever. The PA that you could never hear, crunching tackles, players that didn't writhe around like they'd been shot when they lost the ball, and characters, so many characters in the game. From George Best, Tony Currie, Frank Worthington, Keith Weller wearing his Wifes tights when it was seriously cold!, Stan Bowles, Rodney Marsh, Mike Channon, Bob Hatton and many many others, including the City vintage of Gibson, Jacobs, Drysdale, Skirton, Derrick, Parr, Garland, Galley, Sharpe and co, followed by the heroes who made it to the big time like Gow, Whitehead, Tainton, Cashley, Shaw, Merrick, Cheesley, Ritchie, Gillies and co. The only ones ever since to come close have been Gazza and Balotelli. The game has changed an awful lot since the 70's, and most of it for be worst too. It's lost it's sense of wonder for me, and I don't like it half as much I'm afraid for lots of different reasons. Most of my reasons I suspect are similar to your own ! I also freely admit I'm also 40 odd years older which also taken it's toll. On the plus side I guess you could argue that spectator comfort and safety has increased, but for me the entertainment factor has dropped, mainly from there just being so damn much of it on TV. We're even getting the Juplier Belgian League via Sky now....
100% agree with this statement OS. I hate the Premier League and what it’s done to English football, yet I want City uo there fighting to be in it. Too many clubs that have experienced it have nigh on gone bankrupt trying to get back when that inevitable relegation occurs, it’s that addiction to the Premier Leagure for clubs and chairman alike that makes the Premiership such a toxic environment in my eyes, and don’t even get me started on overpaid average footballers and their agents.........
The football may be a contributing factor for some? The amount of goals has decreased, the amount of tackles likewise although players do run far further and make more passes. I find the actual environment football is played in sterile and tedious. The football suffers for myself as a spectacle due to that less involved crowd. On the upside away from the money ... Man City are an inspiring watch.
Interesting juxtaposition!! Had they not been able to buy the best of everything would they be so good to watch? Whilst it all has to fall into place, probably not!!
Juxtaposition ... It is, but a benefit, a positive could be that skill is to be valued. Man Utd or Man City? Man City's methodology in attacking intent is to be admired. Guardiola's football is about mastery of the football not just finance.
Great thread guys and very interesting - please keep it going. "Mastery of football" is very much dependant upon where you find yourself in the football money pyramid. Mastery at Man City's level is very much dependant upon the financial power they wield. Yes, you have to have the right manager to blend it all together and Guardiola has proven himself. Mastery at other levels is a diferent kettle of fish altogether. At our joint level in the Championship money obviously helps - look at Wolves - but it takes something else as well. Johnson and Warnock are more than holding their own with vastly different resources made available to them as opposed to Wolves for instance. Can't comment on Johnson that much through lack of knowledge. I realise Warnock is very often seen as the pantomime villain but he exudes management qualities to the extent that many accuse him of "anti-football mastery". Not so. He does what he does to get the best from what he's got regardless of money spent. Having said that, I doubt (and he's expressed the same feelings) that he would be suited to Premier League football knowing he would be pitted against clubs with astronomic resources that would swamp a side such as ours. His undoubted management skills would be blown away by the financial clout of others. By the same token, I doubt Guardiola would galvanise any Championship side to achieve similar success without significant financial backing. Horses for courses - Guardiola is clearly a top man, if not the top man at his level when he can accumulate his choice of world class players with money no option. Lower down the pyramid of divisions and consequently money, a different type is needed.
Agreed. Put Guardiola in charge of Forest Green or Port Vale for example and I recon he would struggle. Some managers are made for certain situations and IMO your Neil Warnock is made for the Championship. He is a master at this level - just like Steve Cottrill is at League 1. Our LJ? Time will judge if he is very good or just having a very long and enjoyable (for us) purple patch - like Danny Wilson did with Barnsley. Answer me this though Sparky; IF you got promoted this season, would you want Warnock to stay and manage you in the Prem? Or would he get the ‘golden bullet’ like Houghton did with Newcastle a few years back? I can’t see LJ being replaced for us at all. If SL stuck with him during a terrible run last season he is hardly going to replace him if he achieved what nobody has managed to do since Alan Dicks.
I think as Neil sort of hinted at, this is his swan song .. go out on a high get them there and likely he might want to hand over to someone pretty quick? doesn't he have just a one year contract?
