Well done AVB. The past week or so I've been thoroughly impressed with the man, not just with his selctions/ tactics but also the way he's conducted himself in interviews. I've been down the South West Coast for a week so haven't been on here much but I've managed to keep in the loop with Spurs, caught the QPR game and got home just in time (literally, 5 mins before kick off!) for the Utd game. QPR game, I thought straight away seeing Bale at LB with Dempsey infront of him wouldn't work. I'd have rather seen Townsend start at LB/ LW as natural wingers work far better in our system than a wide midfielder/ attacker cutting in. I was dreading seeing Bale come out in the 2nd half at LB as I didn't think AVB was going to change as we were looking like how we played against WBA/ Norwich, luckily he did and it turned out to be a master stroke. Not only did it release Bale down the left but Caulkers introduction won us the game in my opinion. His header that lead to Faurlin's own goal was a great start and his last ditch clearing header which would have reach Cisse on the back post for a certain goal was brilliant. Added to that the fact Verts had a blinding game, both at CB in the first half and LB second showed AVB does know a thing or two about switching things up for the better . Utd game, wow! Played the exact team I would have played with the exception of Gallas. But my word did Gallas prove me wrong, great performance and although on 70(ish) mins I would have taken him off as he really did look f*cked with his leg, he managed to dig in and put in a real captains performance. Verts again was magnificent (all ready a contender for signing of the season) as was Dembele and Sandro in the centre of the field, especially the first half. I haven't seen a team dominate Utd in the first half like that in well... Possibly ever in my 22 years. The speed of our attacks and counter attacks were brilliant and Ferdinand's face when trying to catch Bale for the second goal was a picture. 2nd half saw a completely different Spurs side, we knew Utd would come at us and although at times I felt we wasted some valuable time on the ball, we defended as a unit against wave after wave of Utd attack which at one point had 4 top drawer strikers on the pitch (albeit Hernandez was only on at 90 mins). The decisions to replace Dempsey and Dembele - who both looked tired were spot on and bringing Daws on for the last 5 minutes was needed to ensure we shut Utd out til the final whistle. Interviews - has handled the Lloris questions very well, although I'm still very surprised if a little disappointed that he's not started more. Has also handled himself well when the media (or Phil Jiggins should I say) have tried causing a stir in regards to there being a player revolt (which everyone knows is b*llocks, we have a very down to earth set of lads with no egotistical pr*cks). I read in an article somewhere that Bale had even said that if the players felt the training was too strenuous, AVB would lighten the work load and that he's also open to ideas from the players - which is great. So overall, the past week or so, AVB has certainly managed to gain some of my faith and respect which I felt was nigh on impossible, hopefully he can continue to impress and prove myself and other doubters massively wrong
Hi SoS, don't you or anyone else take this the wrong way but the result is clouding some judgement imo. Some of the tactics were very questionable. The high tempo, high pressing game first half, away on a big pitch like OT...helluva risk. This is why we blew out 2nd half refusing to shift off our 18yd line. Inviting United onto you for an entire half is again, kind of crazy. Paul Scholes will never get an easier 45mins to do exactly as he pleases, any chance of a man marker Andre? I've never seen us play so deep by choice, Defoe was in our half and at times there was still a 20 yd gap to the next Spurs player which he was gesticulating at several times trying to get us further up...shocking. When JD did receive the ball, who the **** told him to repeatedly take 3 defenders on to take another shot? If your teammates are under the cosh, you go to the corner flags to give them a breather. And as for United being dismantled at home, City did it last year for the nearly the whole game not just a half. It was a fantastic game and result, and I've been over the moon all weekend, but we were well overdue a game like that going our way, but to say it was masterminded by great tactics, no way.
Hi Notso, you're probably right mate, I think the fact I'm still buzzing has probably clouded my true judgement of the Utd game . The second half as I stated we wasted some valuable possession at times which did annoy me, especially at one point where Dembele had a clear 20 yard run yet chose to pass to Defoe who was being shadowed by Evans, this was after a huge United enslaught where we needed a breather. Ironically I said the same RE JD trying too much with the ball and not taking it to the corner flag. Scholes did have a hell of a lot of possession which is expected, especially when Utd are at home but I think with a player of his calibre it's probably just as risky trying to play a man-marker than not, purely because he's good enough to still find the space needed to make a killer pass. I'm glad we did go all guns blazing though in the first half, the two goal lead we managed to get was vital. Utd would have come out trying to win the game in the second half even if we weren't 2 up so I think although it was really f*cking risky, it did eventually pay off thanks to the likes of Friedel, Vertonghen, Gallas, Caulker and Dembele defending superbly (thought Walker was very poor though, not had the best of starts to the season in my opinion). Was a brilliant game to watch though, mainly for us Spurs fans (even if I did nearly suffer a heart attack... ) but I'm sure neutrals enjoyed it too.
I agree there's still some way to go but I think AVB has mixed getting us playing how we wants and getting the right results well in recent matches. He seems to be balanced and recognise that his style is not going to be immediately as effective as he'd like whilst there were so many changes over the summer and into the season. There's none of the tactical stubborness or arrogance that we were told to expect, and to some degree, saw last season with Chelsea. The main thing I'll be looking out for in the coming month or so is a sign that Walker's improving defensively. He's been poor in that regard this season and played Rooney and then Kagawa onside for the two goals and generally hasn't looked at the races when he's been in our half. If he can get improvement from him or drops him until he improves then it'll show to me that he can really make the changes we need to put us well up there in the league.
It was a huge risk, but in reality the only way we stood a chance of winning, as Wigan tried the same approach against Utd but didn't have the quality we had, so when they run out of steam in the first half (at 0-0) second half meant they got thumped. Thankfully for us we managed to get that 2-0 lead and we had dempsey in the second half to grab that third, as if we never went 3-1 up then I would have fully expected us to have lost that game. However I agree with you about the praise towards AVB, as many are making out this one result has confirmed AVB is this great manager who will lead us to success, I would say its premature and still a long way to go before we can start claiming AVB is going to turn us into a force. When man utd are at home, inspired by Rooney & Scholes, its near on impossible to stop their relentless attacks, we have seen many teams pushed back deep when the opposition are simply too good. It has happened with England, Chelsea, the goons against Barca, sure many more examples, yet sometimes its near on impossible to play higher up the pitch when the opposition have you pressed back. As what do you do? push high up so you try and compete in midfield? that would make sense, yet the players lost all confidence, we needed someone to get hold of the ball, but all our defenders done was punt it up field. If in games against quality opposition this becomes the norm, then clearly AVB has to look at his tactics and realise they are flawed, as we can't carry on looking like completely different teams in each half. It happened against QPR at home, useless 1st half, great 2nd half, now against Utd we're great 1st half then awful second half, but because the results have been positives then AVB can hide behind them.
Yep, AVB has had a fantastic week, let's not forget the 3-0 v Carlisle away as well, highly impressive performance. Including the Lazio game, we've had a lot of games in a short space of time. Considering our injury list meaning players like JV didn't get much of a rest, plus all the travelling it was no surprise we tired v Utd. We really need to rest JV on Thursday, but because of injuries and the crucial nature of the game we can't, ditto Defoe. It's going to be very hard for AVB to get this right, getting Naughton and Ade back for Sunday would be a fantastic boost, even if they only play for 20 mins or so. Then the international break and maybe Benny/Parker will be back.
I agree with you here notso to a point, but I also have to draw your attention to something else you said about Defoe in another post, that I also agree with..... Say what you want about the tactics. They worked. Better than anyone else's effort in the last 23 years. What I like about this era is that because of the nature of AVB's analytical approach, errors have a good chance of being noticed and acted upon, and trained out. They say that the sign of champions is a team that can win when not playing at their best. We never seem to apply this to ourselves. Hopefully now we have the growing confidence to accept nothing less than champions league qualification as "success".
Other than perhaps getting Scholes man marked, I didn't really see how the tactics were so way off the mark?? no team goes to OT an expects to win. Most clubs go there and expect defeat, in fact. With the pace and attacking ability we have, we were right to do exactly what we did in the first half, as we had nothing to lose. United's defence wasn't at their strongest, and our attackers caused devastation. If we'd just gone there and sat back trying to get a draw or sneak a goal, we would have got pumeled, as scholes would have had the freedom in the first half to do exactly what he did in the second. - imagine another 45 mins of pressure? No thanks. Instead, we punished united and made them have to come up with the best football they could as they needed new ideas. they had no answers for us. The second half might have seemed like an onslaught, but was it? yes united had 86% of possession at one point, but what good is a load of passes from scholes that were just going sideways? they had 1 tactic for most of the game: Ping it 40 yards to Nani. Eventually, Vertonghen sussed him out. (Although he did get a very hard time for the entire game). I actually thought the tactic we adopted second half closed so many of the intricate spaces that united are used to, it ended up giving them no answers. Time and time again they were building up to these opportunities, but more often than not, we had the answer. Like is say, man marking Scholes might have been the only change we could have implemented, but perhaps that would have thrown us a bit defensively? IMO, we got the balance perfect. we went there and played our game first half, which we needed to do.We then got what we needed and used the second half to stop their game, which was going to be inevitable after a half time bollockin'. For me, it was a great balance. And at least we cannot be accused of parking the bus!
"Including the Lazio game, we've had a lot of games in a short space of time. Considering our injury list meaning players like JV didn't get much of a rest, plus all the travelling it was no surprise we tired v Utd." What a load of ****. Travelling??? Other teams have been across Europe and not looked like we did, plus its September...tired! Anyway, Hi LS, that comment was only about his selection, not dropping him immediately for Ade, like a berk or two suggested. A shout to JD from the sideline was what I was referring to in this thread, the fact a 30 yr old PL striker should need one to do that is another matter entirely! Yes the tactics did work...just! but you know aswell as I do this conversation could have been entirely different, slating what I've pointed out. I've also pointed out that even Southampton made United look ordinary for a spell this season, and our tactics also worked within that 23 yrs in other matches, just a shame the officials weren't as good! I thought I'd gone out of my way to point out this is not a "knock the manager" session, just saying what I see game by game...perhaps I'd better congratulate him! His handling of the twat reporter re Lloris was excellent, replying to Lloris being unhappy or whatever word he used, AVB's reply "how do you know" just totally buttfucked him! Overall its a vast improvement on the person I saw at Chelsea, but I'm not won over yet, like most people here I would imagine...those with a brain anyway!
Roo, they hit the woodwork 3 times, Brads facial expression saving that blockbuster from Scholes said he had no idea where that was going, Evra free header, RVP wasteful, and other moments of wobbly finishing. Fact is, those chances were created, we did not keep them at arms length as you seem to hinting, or am I wrong there? As for alternative, 2nd half, instead of allowing them to start with their changes having the ball and to get into the game, we could have started fast again just for another 10/15 min keeping the ball too, United got momentum from the whistle...because we allowed it. An early goal from us again would have killed any HT rollickin...they'd have got another at FT ! Not enough thinking going on here!
Yeah, agreed Notso they def had chances. but what i was getting at is that in general, it wasn't easy for them because of the tactic's we adopted. scholes was made to either pass left and right or shoot from distance with tonnes of bodies in the way, before reaching brad. The way we defended resulted in a FK which was a fair distance out and would have required something special. (great strike BTW). and the evra opportunity was again down to the crossing from the right (which i picked up on as being our weak spot). I can only remember 1 of the other two woodwork efforts, which is the looping ball that skimmed the bar and came down. - not really one which can be classed as "hitting the woodwork", IMO. what I'm trying to get at, is although we had pressure and united had their chances second half, I think AVB pretty much got it right. even if we'd have lost, I'd have been saying the same thing. whenever united are losing at OT or anywhere, they always find a comeback and don't stop, right until the final whistle. - all that pressure in the second half would have happened regardless IMO. i just think we did the right thing to get as many goals as we could first half, and then make united find the answers. rather than being 0-0 for most of the game then united scoring and shutting up shop, or, united getting 1, then ending up scoring 3 with us capitulating under the pressure. perhaps i'm way off the mark, but it was refreshing to see a "we've got nothing to lose" mentality from the outset. Old Trafford looked stunned. And also nice to see that Foy didn't buckle under the pressure. Then again, he owes us a decent performance or 2.
Sorry Luke, that's ridiculous. You are one of the biggest and best clubs in the world who play CL football year in, year out. Your entire defence is made up of internationals, even those who played at the weekend. Yes, some united fans might say that it wasn't your strongest back 4, but all your defenders are top quality. Give some credit to the likes of Dembele Bale and Lennon. They left you in tatters. That's one of the stronger back 4's we'll face all season, even if it's not your strongest!
It was a typical "man utd" response. Of course there will be no credit to our players for ripping them a new arsehole. It was all because man utd played badly or because the ref bum-raped them or because aliens were controlling our players like a game of fifa.
Thats kind of what I'm getting at Roo, United are always going to have the lion share at home under usual circumstances, but going in at HT 2 zip down isn't usual. I totally agree United were always going to have a spell of dominance, but there's no need to lay out the red carpet for them for 45 mins, I'm sure we could have done something to reduce the inevitable spell of home pressure by playing our way for a bit longer, I'm not saying we should keep United at bay for 90, thats not happening.
The thing is Notso, I'm sure Villas-Boas would've liked to have made a change to give us some forward momentum and an out ball, but who could he have brought on? We had nobody of any experience on the bench that could've provided that and we seemed happy to force them out wide and let them cross the ball at height. They ended up moving it out to their right wing and hitting hopeful balls into the box in the air, where Gallas, Caulker, Sandro, Vertonghen, et al had the beating of their attackers all day. Walker made a couple of poor decisions and they resulted in virtually all of their chances. He hasn't had a great start to the season, as YV pointed out and he needs to work on his positioning badly. They hit the woodwork three times? I can only remember two. Rooney's free-kick and Carrick's flicked on header, which definitely wasn't meant as an attempt on goal.
Not my favourite pundit, but what he has to say later on in his piece is spot on... http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ic-will-cost-Manchester-United-the-title.html
Just because it was mentioned in that report, I have to praise Ba's goal (the legitimate one) from the weekend. What a quality finish that was.
Why does your answer invariably involve change??, there was no need to change...same 11 as the first half wasn't it! If you read what I've said, I have not said first half tactics were that wrong, only the 2nd half, and instead of sitting on 2-0, if we'd come out and tried to play as we did for another 10/15mins two things would/could have happened. We 'would' have reduced the period of United pressure, we could have scored an early 3rd. I shouldn't need to explain to you when a games is 2-0 the 3rd is crucial, 3-0 kills everything, 2-1 to a home side see's total mindset change. The rest of what you've said is incidental to what I'm saying. Pressure was inevitable, but the amount of it could have been reduced and you do not need personnel change to achieve this.
Definitely, to volley a pass dropping over your shoulder is just about as difficult as it gets. Both those Senegalese have great technique and no fear going for the spectacular, in contrast, Lennon hasn't got the balls to take the most basic shot on!
