Off Topic European Debate Thread
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I really hope there are not to many thinking like MTG no disrespect mate but we needto get out of the eu for the good of us all,before the timebomb explodes.
Are you joking?
The poorer have got poorer, the deficit is unsustainable, austerity is crippling many people, child poverty is on the up, food bank usage is on the up, tuition fees have risen, NHS is crumbling, schools are drastically underfunded, the disabled are having their benefits cut.
If Corbyn wasn't such a useless twat then the Tories would've been hammered by now.
Everything has been scapegoated on immigrants, even this referendum was a pathetic tory vote winner
Yes debt and borrowing increased. Mr Osbourne has not met his own targets. A reason I take some of his utterances regarding the long term, the EU and project fear with a pinch of salt. Comically Mr Osbourne could not predict what the UK's growth would be for the first quarter of the year whilst making assertions for decades and Brexit.
Yeah financially we are led to believe that we are in a better place as RR says (I think this is true anyways) but I have to agree with all of that from MTG above. This Government has shafted so many vulnerable people when the more wealthy could have taken a very slight hit, it's insane.
There's been a fair few good points over the last page actually. Particularly with the difficulty in re-nationalising things, but I'm not going to lie, again, a huge amount of the argument seems to be around immigration.
Put it this way. I think if the law changed tomorrow, and EU immigration was capped at a manageable figure, let's say 60,000 per year, a huge amount of out voters would swing to in. What does that tell you?
I still think I'm in, but lobby heavily to attempt to control the numbers of immigration. Problem is, is that actually possible?
There's been a fair few good points over the last page actually. Particularly with the difficulty in re-nationalising things, but I'm not going to lie, again, a huge amount of the argument seems to be around immigration.
Put it this way. I think if the law changed tomorrow, and EU immigration was capped at a manageable figure, let's say 60,000 per year, a huge amount of out voters would swing to in. What does that tell you?
I still think I'm in, but lobby heavily to attempt to control the numbers of immigration. Problem is, is that actually possible?
That immigration is a massive issue.
"I still think I'm in, but lobby heavily to attempt to control the numbers of immigration. Problem is, is that actually possible?"
No. Free movement across borders is a core principle of the EU.
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No chance Rob the borders are open at that point,nothing will stop it.
God help us all.
Hopefully the Brits have more sence.
So the government has borrowed more money than Labour did?
Yet you say the deficit is unsustainable, schools and the NHS is underfunded etc.. So are you suggesting the government borrows more money to fund all this? Or do you have some miracle money tree to fund it all?
I would be interested to know? because you can't have it both ways?
Just a suggestion but if we don't pay in £58m a day to the EU, perhaps we could spend some of that?
You need some years in the real world MTG, where you're paying for some of theses things and watch people you have known since school take disability benefits and laugh in peoples faces when confronted on it..
Or maybe that people who claim to want to leave the EU are basing their arguments on immigration and little else? There's a wider picture to be seen.
I must admit, I fear you're almost certainly right on the final part. What I don't understand is why are the other larger nations not having a similar backlash as to the one we're having? Surely they must have large numbers of immigrants too? And surely they must be putting a strain on the services? That would help massively no doubt in reform if a lot of states were wanting the same.
I really do like the free movement of people idea, it's great for holidays and the like, but for anything over x weeks/months, surely there can be a way of capping the number of permanents in the long-term. It's not impossible, it just won't happen no doubt.
They are Rob, massively.. Its one of the things about the EU I hate, its all swept under the carpet, us minions are not intelligent enough to understand it so its best not to tell us! (Except MTG of course he's academic!)
My sister in law lives in Paris. They are giddy with it. (she works in passport and UK visa control in Paris and you wouldn't believe the stories!)
Germany,Poland the resentment is at boiling point,oh forgot to mention the French they are seething.
Immigration is a massive issue. It is a wide topic encompassing services, housing (a disasterous situation already) , the fabric of society. That fabric should not be an EU experiment with the outcome being a UK changed beyond all recognition.
I could make other points about how the free movement of people x free market damages that fabric. Wages and opportunity down the social scale are being limited by a system of lowest cost, lowest wage replacing what is already here. The outcome is society does not train its own workforce. Society and by that I mean capital now looks to outsource everything to whoever does it cheaper, even the services and utilities we depend upon..
The EU is not a union based on egalitarianism, its enforced on dog eat dog where Countries are judged by GDP etc e.g. Germany v Greece.
Figures show 1.2m more EU migrants have got National Insurance numbers in the past five years than have shown up in immigration statistics.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36271390
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36271390
Being concerned about immigration isn't racist.
I am concerned that our infrastructure can't cope with the speed and number of people coming into the country at the present rates. As I said before; they could all be doctors, nurses - on benefits - or trained rocket scientists - white, black, Asian - it doesn't matter, because they will still need housing, schools, toilets, electricity, water, refuse collection, medical provision etc etc - and we can't meet those needs. If the numbers migrating here each year is 330k (according to http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/latest-immigration-statistics )
Just to give you an idea of what that means by way of infrastructure, it's like the entire population of Leicester coming here EVERY YEAR. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester - we need to build a new Leicester each year to house them.
IMHO the issue isn't that we will get a load of people coming here freeloading and looking for benefits (although that does, and WILL happen to an extent), but rather that we just simply CANNOT COPE with the sheer numbers of human beings and their human needs.
All of this leads me to tend towards the 'Out' camp.
However...
It's the unknown economic 'punishment' the EU will inflict on us and the attitude of the rest of the world (the US, China, India) towards us that worries me greatly. Don't think that they would welcome us - they are looking out for themselves and will want to RUIN us - the worse our industries do, the better it is for theirs.
Here in Swindon, we have a Honda factory, which exports most of its cars to mainland Europe. I can foresee a situation where the new EU (minus the UK) says to Mr. Honda 'Hey, if you want to ship your cars over here you'll now have to pay import taxes on them, but if you move your factory to Spain, say - we'll make it worth your while...'
The French in particular would love to see us struggle - and struggle we would.
Still undecided - and it's driving me MAD. Neither option fills me with confidence.
I am concerned that our infrastructure can't cope with the speed and number of people coming into the country at the present rates. As I said before; they could all be doctors, nurses - on benefits - or trained rocket scientists - white, black, Asian - it doesn't matter, because they will still need housing, schools, toilets, electricity, water, refuse collection, medical provision etc etc - and we can't meet those needs. If the numbers migrating here each year is 330k (according to http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/latest-immigration-statistics )
Just to give you an idea of what that means by way of infrastructure, it's like the entire population of Leicester coming here EVERY YEAR. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester - we need to build a new Leicester each year to house them.
IMHO the issue isn't that we will get a load of people coming here freeloading and looking for benefits (although that does, and WILL happen to an extent), but rather that we just simply CANNOT COPE with the sheer numbers of human beings and their human needs.
All of this leads me to tend towards the 'Out' camp.
However...
It's the unknown economic 'punishment' the EU will inflict on us and the attitude of the rest of the world (the US, China, India) towards us that worries me greatly. Don't think that they would welcome us - they are looking out for themselves and will want to RUIN us - the worse our industries do, the better it is for theirs.
Here in Swindon, we have a Honda factory, which exports most of its cars to mainland Europe. I can foresee a situation where the new EU (minus the UK) says to Mr. Honda 'Hey, if you want to ship your cars over here you'll now have to pay import taxes on them, but if you move your factory to Spain, say - we'll make it worth your while...'
The French in particular would love to see us struggle - and struggle we would.
Still undecided - and it's driving me MAD. Neither option fills me with confidence.
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No, quite right, but the 'stay' brigade like to wheel it out to anybody who mentions it as a very good reason to leave the EU..
Its been used on here several times.
That report is shocking Wiz!
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We are a island with limited space and resources,we cannot sustain large amounts of europeans and the like coming here and using,milking our country.
Do you think the usa would be dictated to, with regards to who, or where they conduct their business of course not.
let's see what would happen if we said to the USA you take all these immigrants let's see their reaction.
I'm suggesting that austerity doesn't work. If we borrowed and grew our economy then we would get more income from people earning more and thus paying more tax.
In order to grow the economy we need to be in the Eu.
Its hard work debating with you. You said..'the deficit is unsustainable' and in the next breath suggest we borrow more money, (despite the fact you have used that as a weapon against the tories) to increase the issues that caused the austerity and recession in the first place.
The cost of the extra borrowed money will eradicate any benefit back in tax.
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