England will be no substitute for Sunderland this summer

I thought of this last Thursday When the England men’s team generously donated two goals to Holland. Laughing at misfortune is the English thing to do.


This wasn’t merely because they were only eliminated from the Nations League, a sort of international Checkatrade Trophy. It was part of a general apathy towards the national side that becomes more widespread.

I’m not trying to be cool or fashionable; two traits I have long since abandoned hope of attaining. I am genuinely indifferent. You can’t feign indifference while watching a football match any more than you can feign passion.

I do love this country. It’s just that I don’t care much about its footy team.

Please understand. England is my international team and I want them to win. However, I’m not particularly upset when they don’t.


I will admit to a soupçon of excitement when they reached the World Cup semi-final. However, it took me about a minute to recover from the disappointment of losing it. Certainly, it felt as nothing compared to Sunderland’s play-off defeat in May.

The appeal of England is limited outside London. This, of course, is a sweeping generalisation that by no means always applies.

But London football fans often actually care more about their national team than their clubs; and can develop chips on shoulders about those who don’t share this view.

The city of Sunderland was energised when England played in the 2018 World Cup. But that had more to do with the starring roles of two of their own: Jordans Pickford and Henderson.


There are reasons for Sunderland fans to even resent the national set-up and FA. Discriminating squad selections against their players has regularly proved maddening.
It’s admittedly rare that SAFC has players worthy of England caps. Today’s third tier contingent has little more chance of a call-up than I do.

But what about when Sunderland aren’t so low? How many of their 608 Premier League games were watched by England managers?

Darren Bent’s 24 PL goals in 2009-10 didn’t admit him to the South Africa World Cup. He played indifferently in sweltering heat against Brazil during a pointless friendly in Doha seven months before the tournament. So that was that: overlooked in favour of the lumbering Emile Heskey, who scored seven international goals in only 11 years.

At the 2000 European Championships, Kevin Phillips didn’t play a single minute, despite being Europe’s top scorer. England were eliminated at the group stage.



But it goes back tortoise years. Brian Clough, with 54 Sunderland goals in 64 games in the 1960s, never represented England during that time.

Len Shackleton, England’s most gifted player of the 1950s, received five caps. As 1930s Sunderland players, goal machines Raich Carter and Bobby Gurney won the league and the FA Cup, but received only five and one cap respectively.

Nor is this wrong-club-syndrome unique to Sunderland. Andros Townsend played better for Newcastle than he did for Tottenham where he rarely started a game. Yet his move from Spurs to Tyneside “coincided” with the end of his international career.

Making England even less appealing are boring football, jingoistic half-wits following them, and the FA’s unconscionable treatment of Sunderland Ladies.

I might cheer when England score. But not loudly.

 

Great thread Roger.
Sums up my feelings towards the National team, complete indifference me, didn't even know they played the other day in that totally pointless 3rd 4th place play off.
it is nice when our youngsters do well for them but as you said we've been subject to some awful treatment from the most useless body ever put in charge of a national sport the FA.
haven't bothered about the National team since their treatment of Kevin Phillips.

 

I have got back into it now since Southgate took charge. He is giving youngsters a chance and we are playing decent footy. Its up to us now to climb through the leagues so we have players who are in a position to get picked for the country.

 

but its still very hard for our youngsters to get in the England team even if they are outstanding

 

Well said MR. Perfect summary.

 

I’ve got to say, I’m incredibly passionate about the national team, more so last few years admittedly.

Sunderland always first because that’s so rooted in my every day life, but I’m an incredibly proud Mackem, and an incredibly proud Englishman.

Folk often point of the failures in this country but look at our population, compare it to Spain, France, Germany....

We overachieve, constantly, not just sport, everything.

Medicine, science, architecture everything. I feel a lot for this land of ours, for all it’s shortcomings.

Everyone is his own man, but I couldn’t imagine not having a bit of pride and patriotism, and when England play, now that it’s not a boys club and now that we are finally choosing on merit and properly integrating young lads, I’m as involved as I get at the SOL (friendlies excluded....)

 

Talking of over achieving, Jamaica takes some beating in supplying top talent in the sport and entertainment worlds.

 

Very true indeed mate.

 

Past caring after the 1970 world cup f/up.

 

I don't get your point with this bit, our population is higher than Spain, and not far behind France and Germany in the grand scheme

 

I mean, it’s 10million (12% or so) less than France. 30 million (just shy of 40%) lower than Germany and although theoretically higher than Spain itself, once you factor in the islands and European Hispanic community we are around 15 million short there as well.

We could also factor in the many dual nationality North African nations, where the french have take many, many players from of course. Really average players like Zidane, Benzema, Djorkaeff...

But ok mate

 

Yeah we're not the biggest in the world but saying we overachieve constantly relative to our size is a bit of stretch imo...

All three of those countries you've named have won the World Cup in the last 10 years. Spain (smaller population) pretty much reinvented and dominated world football for four years straight, Germany have 7 major titles to our 1 (600% more) with that 30% extra population (and have been runners-up a further 7 times), and France are lightyears ahead of anybody else at the moment - their B team would have had a realistic chance at winning last year's WC in my opinion. By contrast, we've gotten past the quarter finals of any competition 5 times in our entire history, never been runners-up, and won once.

The dual nationality thing is swings and roundabouts, we do the same. At least the vast majority of France's dual nat players were born in the country, arguably our best player at the moment (Sterling) wasn't even born here. And then there's Sancho, Alli, Rice, Dier who are all dual nat. There's probably more I can't think of off the top of my head.

Based on population, we should be consistently competing at the top with the likes of those three, but the fact is we're nowhere near. We only got to the semis last year because we got given an easy draw. As soon as we played anyone half decent we got found out. Colombia would have done us in the quarters if they'd actually played football from the first minute rather than trying to kick lumps.

I don't see how we're over-achieving when, even last year, two of the teams who out-performed us have far smaller populations - Belgium came third and we have 500% their population. Croatia came second and we have over 1,300% their population. Hell, Portugal have won two European titles in the last 3 years and we have 5 x their population. In what way are we over-achieving?

 

So, despite our population being smaller, as I’ve said, we should be competing with the others, yet we are failing by not bettering Belgium and Croatia, because their populations are smaller?

All of the dual nationality folk you mention are Englishmen who started as youth players at English clubs.

Croatia, Portugal and Belgium absolutely overachieve, as do The Dutch. Overachievement has many forms and levels doesn’t it? It’s not a rigid term.

It’s both ways or neither. Fortunately, we are doing what Belgium and Portugal have done for 20 years, and investing heavily in youth.

Let’s not forget, that we were a goal post away from Italia 90 final, 2 inches of Gazza’s boot away from Euro 96, we had wrongly disallowed goals in France and Portugal when we were incredibly strong.

England haven’t been far from success, just folk prefer to go down the route of focusing on failures, we’ve been exceptionally close, we have the best league in the world.

We’ve won multiple youth tournaments over the last 3 or 4 years and we have progressed as a national team. The FA had a terrible setup, antiquated, for 30 years and we didn’t invest in youth, now we are.

I’ll keep my positive outlook on our nation and national team, I’ll continue to believe my view that we do well, and I’ll enjoy watching the national side continue to improve as the fruits of the changes at grass roots level continue to bloom.

 

Great debating @David Moyes' Stupid Face and @Nads