Blame some of your players as well. Football players in the EPL are professionals and, most importantly, grown men. Whilst a manager helps a great deal to inspire confidence and fight, they ultimately shouldn't need an older fella looking over them to perform well for the thousands of fans. Plus, you just have to look at potential relegation candidates or past relegated teams (not saying you guys are, bear with me) to see that it's never JUST the manager. Just look at Newcastle. Whilst our managers did fail in their duty, the team was made up of either overpaid mercenaries, or people who just didn't care enough to pull their finger out when the times got tough. Ultimately, I think that team was beyond saving, and no manager (no matter how much skill the individual players had) could have saved us from the drop. You also have to wonder just how much Bruce is to blame for certain results. Just take a look at the Wigan match. When we faced them, we only won 1-0 thanks to a superb Cabaye goal. You guys seemed to have the same trouble as us breaking them down (i.e. underestimation). But what won it for them was Wes Brown completely messing up a clearance and leaving Wigan to finish off an easy goal. Now how can Bruce be blamed for that? Equally, you guys nullified any of Man Utd's play, but it was a Brown OG which lost a point. He's a highly experienced defender, so how can Bruce be blamed for that? Then you have to look at the Aston Villa game, where you guys came back twice from being a goal down, or West Brom, where you guys equalised after letting in two goals in the first 5 minutes. Now doing that takes an awful lot of fight, so Bruce may have had some sort of positive influence. My point is that the players should be scrutinised just as much as the manager at this time. For all of Bruce's cock-ups, it's still no excuse for the players to be lagging or unwilling to fight for the Sunderland fans. Also, the team has played some good football, but individual player errors have cost points on more than one occasion, but it just becomes more pressure on Bruce. If I were Short, and I did sack Bruce, I know I'd be keeping a close eye on the players to really pull their finger out on their own accord, and to also start fighting for the team and each other. It should be a given without some 50 year old bloke telling them what to do.
Know what ur saying mate and i agree in part that of course our players need to take a large slice of responsibility for our performances. However in the games you mentioned we missed numerous chances against Wigan/Fulham, however you look at the players missing the chances (Bardsley, Colback, Richardson) ie. not strikers and then you consider we played 4-5-1 against two of the poorest away teams in the division then personally i would consider Bruce partly to blame as with 2 strikers on the pitch paid to score goals then we may find converting chances a touch easier. Also saying Brown is an experienced defender and inferring he was to blame for the og at Man Utd, the player flicking the ball on was not his man and the ball simply hit him at point blank range and he could do nothing about it, tho obviously the Wigan mistake was his alone.
Insightful as always Chappaz - although to blame Brown for the OG at Utd is completely wrong - it was a complete accident - I actually don;t think any of our fans blamed Bruce against Man Utd as we played well and deserved something from the game - however on Saturday he had a team playing high up the field an d creating chance after chance in the first half - scoring one and, if not for some excellent goalkeeping, would have been 3 or 4 ahead by half time - instead, thanks to inept refereeing, we were drawing 1-1 - now Bruce needed to sit those players down at half time and gee them up - second half kicked off and I don't really remember us having a shot after half time - their keeper did nothing second half - the manager must push those players to ensure that they raise their game... And he didn't - he's failing our club - I agree some of the players have to take responsibility but when they have drive and determination up until the point the manager gets to talk to them all stinks of bad management to me... Just an opinion like!
These are his players; his team; his formations; his inept tactics and his implausible substitutions. Bruce is 100% to balme for his own demise and if players have been sold under him by the board, then he should have the nuts to come out and say so. Bent and Gyan left and were not replaced. That is 100% down to the manager. After all, he had 12m to spend on forwards and did so on Wickham and Ji instead of what the whole world told him he actually needed. A new Bent. He had 5m to spend on an attacking midfielder which he did in Gardener but then hasnt played him. Thats collectively 18m on 3 players that have had limited impact this season. Thats 100% the manager. I have no sympathy with him.
My mention of the individual player errors was more to highlight that Bruce couldn't really be blamed as opposed to heaping blame on the players. However, even when players like Brown made errors (even if they were unavoidable) it just added more pressure onto Bruce overall. Yeah you're right. My point really is that it isn't 100% down to Bruce. There's joint responsibility. Bruce's half-time talk obviously didn't do much, but at the same time, EPL players with years of experience shouldn't need a half-time talk to come out and at least put in a fair bit of effort. I wouldn't expect them to come out all guns blazing, but if they flop, the onus is on them. Then again, if Bruce has put together a squad which doesn't have enough players with a "winning mentality", then perhaps the blame shifts to Bruce once again?
Thing is, when these players don't put in that effort then it is the managers job to ensure that they do - i.e. kick up the backside or take off someone who is playing ****e - make them take note - (Bendtner on Saturday anyone??) - if the gaffer can't do that (I think he's scared of Bendtner's ego tbh) then he shouldn't be the manager!
They're their own men though. Grown men, some of them with years of experience. No matter how much of a pleb Bruce is, when they're playing in front of tens of thousands of Sunderland fans, what Bruce says or does should be completely irrelevant. You shouldn't need a 50 year old man saying 'the right words' to inspire these players to fight for each other or fight for the fans. If you pick out certain failures, then Bruce will be 100% to blame. However, if you pick out other failures, then some of the blame at least shifts to the players. Bruce may have made some bizarre decisions, but can you say that the individual players have made the most out of every situation? For the record, I think Bruce is mostly to blame. However, it would still be worth keeping an eye on some players who may still fail to step up even with a new manager. If such individuals come to the surface, they should be shipped out. Personally, I think I've spotted a few already in the minor amount of Sunderland playing time I've seen.
You may have a point Chappaz, but ultimately the buck stops with the manager...that's the name of the game.. Now as a mag you should know how patience runs out with certain managers... Nature of the beast, heads will roll, starting with the manager..He will be replaced, the players will then have to either shape up or be shifted out by the new boss, who will have his own ideas. But yes he has been let down by so called professionals. Many managers are let down by their workforce and off they go..(how-ever there isn't to many jobs where the workers are payed more than their boss, which is another subject completely)
Think its shocking how a change in manager can miraculously improve a team overnight, however as prev mentioned it does happen (which is why owners see it as a viable option).
It just reminds me of the season we went down. Its like a disease and the longer you leave the disease to rot through your team the longer it takes to start recovering from it. I agree with Chappaz entirely as its exactly how I felt when we were playing appallingly, wondering why the players just werent puttin in the effort that they had shown in previous seasons. Though realistically the January transfer window is just round the corner and this time of year is the hardest time of year to consider a new manager but thats the point Im making. Do you: A: Leave it and hope Bruce can sort the team out in January and then move on to rack up the points B: Get rid of him now and give the new manager a month or so to settle into the job before he dips into the market in January after having time to assess where the team needs strengthened/replaced. Its a tough decision and one that failed for us, cant predict the future but definitely something needs to be done before its too late. You dont want to be sitting near relegation come April or so and have no one in your team that you can look at and think "you are going to save us" Edit- ****, just realised my avatar pic, please ignore or put down as banter
How often does that really happen though? You see a lot of teams suddenly improve with a new manager when they've been relegated, but I'd say that's more because all of the deadwood has left and the opposition is much easier. Radical improvements mid-season in the EPL with a new manager are rare in my opinion, which is why I think problematic individuals should be looked for beyond Bruce alone. If certain players need a 50 odd year old bloke saying the right things in their ears, then are do they really have the correct mentality for when the going inevitably gets tough? Even with a new manager, there are patches of good and bad for every team. It's OK to have players who might not have a particularly good mentality or drive to succeed, but it only becomes problematic when your team relies on these players as some of the most important. Note that in Newcastle, the players with the highest confidence and best mentality are those who are also the most skilful and important to our performances: Krul, Coloccini, Cabaye, Tiote, Ba, Ben Arfa and so on. Yes, we have some mopey players who need an arm around them sometimes, but our game-winning football doesn't rely on them whatsoever.
The reason this is such a massive decision tho is as it always seems to be in football, money. With January lurking round the corner should Bruce be backed with cash in the transfer window (for all of his faults he does have a decent purchasing history) to try and turn it around, or get a new guy in to give him time to acclimatise to the area/team/search for targets. However the longer this current run goes on the more my belief drains that he will turn our season around, I just think when it comes down to it to really motivate and give the players a kick up the arse to push on and win the game when its crunch time he isnt up to the task i.e. Wigan, Fulham, Newcastle, West Brom
From the top of my head Spurs, relegation fodder till Harry turned them round then they become champ league contenders!
Harry Redknapp spent £43m in his first January window after joining Spurs. They're not Champions League contenders either, I'd eat my own legs if they ever managed to get to the final let alone win it. They're just another London also-ran as far as the Champions League goes. Their achievement is a direct result of Liverpool's underachievement. Nothing more, nothing less. Managers hardly ever offer up an immediate fix for a club in turmoil.
Oooh Terry, is this the team 2 points behind your beloved club, with a game in hand? Ok not c/l but give a run for a good finish this season.
Sorry should of clarified when I said Champs League contenders I did mean contending for a champs league place not the trophy! But come on they were bottom of the league with 2points from 8games, then beat Bolton Liverpool and Man City in their next 3games (not to mention THAT 4-4 draw with Arsenal at Highbury). Yeah they spent a lot in January however the recovery was already well under way as Redknapp joined spurs late in Octoberish im sure, plus whose to say we wont spend considerable money (obviously not at that level) in January meaning the decision to sack or back is even more vital.
The players do play their part but I have to say I think Sunderland will improve massively once they get a decent boss in charge. Yes they are professionals, yes some of them are experienced, but the reality is they still need to be led into battle. That is just the way it is. Its one of the things that always annoys me when people crib Hughtons time with us. you hear, "well it was the players who turned it around". No it wasn't. It was very good management by Hughton to realise that he needed to empower a select few players to galvanise the group. He still had to lead them and he had to be big enough to allow the players some power. The easiest thing in the world is go all draconian and my way or the high way. The players can take a certain amount of blame but when you've had the time and finances Bruce has had to get the club the way you want it, then the majority of the resonsibility lies with the manager. Bruce has just been useless. For any good that he does, there is something else which more than outweighs in a negative sense. Signed Wes Brown, good player. But still hasn't signed a left back after three years in charge despite it handicapping their back 4 for that whole period.
Bruce appears happy at "nearly there" and "turning a corner", we are clearly going backwards. 4-5-1 at home to Wigan I'm sorry why? It was clear to see and has been clear to see we have nothing in the final third. Sadly Wickham's injury was pure bad luck as we were starting to look o.k at this point. However since that injury we've had young NOBLE come to the fore getting a hattrick re your reserves (shows a big game attitude for me) and he has given him 4 minutes (was he injured on Saturday) This lad must now have no confidence and must believe Bruce does not fancy him. The same must go for Dong, he must be thinking what he's done to upset Bruce. He has bought 2 midfielders who he clearly doesn't fancy - why buy them? He's lost the plot.
Chappaz - good points in some ways. The Wigan loss was down to one personal error, and we did nullify most of Man. U.'s moves. But, in fairness, you get points for results, not for performances. The bottom line is we're heading into December with four home wins under our belt in 2011. I just can't find any excuses for it any more.
