It's a hypothetical question, but if as reported by the BBC, if Italian officials will now have the power to abandon games if the crowd starts chanting racist remarks; then could it lead to a situation where if a set of fans team is losing, they deliberately start chanting racist songs to try and get the match abandoned and thereby force a replay ? Or would the team with the fans responsible have their points given to the opposition ? Whilst I'm in complete support of any anti racism measures, this could potentially turn out to be a very tricky situation to manage fairly. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20963080
Yes, that's a possible scenario. I think abandoning games could set a dangerous precedent though and could be open to all sorts of abuse / misinterpretation / punishing the wrong people etc. I think a better solution is for UEFA to actually pull their finger out and do something about it, by that I mean in terms of fining clubs significant amounts of money, making them play behind closed doors, or ultimately docking them points.
i made this point on the chavs board, same goes for players walking of, it could lead to fans using it as a means to affect the result
Italian attendances are pretty low right now. What's to stop a group of opposition fans buying tickets in the home end and racially abusing their own players, forcing the authorities to take action against the wrong club? Ok, it's pretty unlikely, but it seems that UEFA are going from one ludicrous extreme to the other.
Exactly It's a brave man that says that publicly though. There's so much sensitivity around the issue at the moment, I think it's very hard for anyone to come out and disagree with any punishment and measures intended to prevent racism without getting heavily criticised.
I think UEFA have boxed themselves into a corner as a result of years of inaction. The issue was forced by KPB and they couldn't do anything but be seen to 'cautiously' endorse it. Now they have a situation where any racism during the game may well end up with players walking off the pitch again, so they have to act to do something about it, otherwise the game will fall apart at the seams. I think your example of fans deliberately trying to get other teams punished is a plausible one - and for other reasons that I mentioned earlier I don't think abandoning games is a viable option. Fines, Banning fans (thereby hitting teams match day revenue) and docking points would be a better solution. That way, decisions can be made after the game has finished and not in the heat of the moment.
Firstly ... even UEFA couldn't be stupid enough to demand the game be replayed if team A were winning and the fans of team B started racist chanting in order to get the games cancelled...surely they can't...can they? Secondly ... If Team A were winning and their fans were being racist then they should have the game awarded against them. Most teams in the top divisions insist on you being a member before you can by a ticket so I can't see how fans could infiltrate other fans areas. I know this can happen in the lower leagues but maybe if clubs are selling tickets on the door then they can insist on fans proving their address or showing ID. On top of this I think all clubs reserve the right to evict fans in the wrong areas. Finally...I think that clubs should be forced to be banned from European Football, to play at least 5 matches behind closed doors and to be banned from having fans going to away grounds. If this happened to Lazio they'd soon stop those nazi ****ers that dominate their terraces from polluting football with their racist anti Semitic filth. The loss of money would force the club to do something to stop it.
Exactly what I thought, but I think it could happen. It could be used to decide some important games as well. For example if a team had a difficult last game of the season but only needed a draw, their fans might decide to do this to ensure they dont lose.
RCL agree It's far too problematic to abandon games, it would cause more problems than it's trying to solve. KPB walking off the pitch is a direct consequence of UEFA doing absolutely **** all to address Racism. The kick racism out of football campaign has also seen as lip service by some prominent black players - and the list of altercations grows whilst it's met with relative inaction by the football authorities UEFA need to address the issue in a meaningful way. Clubs being docked points or banned from competitions would make them take it seriously and also, the individuals involved need to be charged and banned from stadiums.
With CCTV and all the modern technology it easy easy for the authorities to find the racist scum.They just need to grow some balls and tackle the problem
To be perfectly honest, and I am really not trying to be an ass, I think trivializing racism into a matter of "points" is wrong. Prior to the racial genocide that has occurred in the 20th Century, there was a dehumanizing of a race of individuals through language that propagated the notion that they were sub-human, in order to try and justify the subsequent murders. This took place in everyday life, such as during football matches, in church and in the workplace. There is a record of this happening in Nazi Germany, Bosnia and Rwanda. If it were just a matter of getting a few points for a football team it wouldn't be as serious a crime, or important. Crowds' chanting frequently does result in an advantage for one team or another and can throw players off their game, but this is not why RACIST chanting is not allowed. Players should have (and I believe do have) every right to walk off the field. This is not the sort of thing that we should tolerate in a civilized society.
It's not really trivialising it into a matter of 'points', but more an effective way to punish clubs that fail to address it. I can understand why players would walk off, but as mentioned earlier in the thread, I think abandoning games would create more problems than it's trying to solve.
Piskie, I am being sensitive to coming across as pompus or preaching here, or trying to score cheap points, because I don't think this is the subject to try and do that (even if there ever is one in intelligent debate), but I don't think any football related "problem" that we cause, trying to prevent racial persecution, is going to be bad enough, to make me think we shouldn't take that step to prevent racism from happening. I was very concerned by (Blatter and others') language (subsequent to the recent incidents) that seemed to infer some kind of weakness demonstrated in the players' responses. To me this seemed intrinsically racist in itself, by inferring that the players concerned couldn't take the abuse (presumably because of the weakness of their race). Or to suggest that the racists in the crowd won some kind of victory for their message, because they forced players off the field, and got a reaction. I found the events in Serbia even more chilling, as these people were very close to ethnic cleansing and genocide, and I find it very difficult to excuse them as ignorant, after what happened so recently in their part of the world. I think we have to be very careful not to somehow empower the racists, beause we are worried about causing "problems". Racism is something that merits any action to prevent it, because it can lead to very serious crimes. It may sometimes seem trivial, (the John Terry incident) but to my mind, it is important that we take them seriously, because they are the thin end of the wedge.
I understand where you're coming from, but as mentioned in this thread, racists could deliberately sabotage games if they thought there was a chance of them being abandoned. The potential for abuse / misinterpretation would likely create a huge mess for the game. Far more pragmatic is to actually charge the individuals, ban them from the grounds and punish the clubs who fail to address it.
As far as I am concerned let them get games abandoned. This is a way for us to show that we as a society will not tolerate racism, no matter what the consequence. I would go so far as to say that I would advocate cancelling an entire competition because of a racist incident. I am a huge football fan, but football is completely trivial when put alongside a crime such as racism. I have to be honest, I even have issues with your use of the word pragmatic, in the sense that it suggests that abandoning games is not a practical, or useful recourse. I think abandoning games would be a very useful and practical demonstration that we (as a society) will not allow racists an opportunity to spread their message, and that we, as a society, will take any steps to prevent it. I as an Arsenal fan, would absolutely support the club, players and manager, if we forfeited a game because our own supporters were making racist chants. That would be the right (moral) thing to do.
To be fair TT, by pragmatic I mean using the best way to ensure that Racism is effectively dealt with in the game; because as acceptable it is for a racially abused player to say 'actually, I don't have to put up with this' and walk off the pitch, abandoning games, and sanctioning it within the rules, would create so many problems that it would in fact end up ruining the game.
Fair point, and OK I'll stop, but I was willing to risk that because I think racism is serious enough.
There is of course another scenario that I havent seen mentioned on here which would make docking points a far better option to use. It is that you say that if a minority of fans are using racist chanting that the points will not be deducted if the other fans in that stand point out who it is and assist the police in prosecuting, probably by giving statements and/or acting as witnesses in court if required. That would have a twofold effect in that the racists would know that other supporters of their team would act against them, or if they didnt and/or it was the majority of fans so the monority wouldnt be able to stand up to them their team would have points deducted. This would also avoid the risk of a small number of opposition fans coming in because they would still be grassed up by the other fans. Only a small tweak to the original thought, but it could make the difference in it being more effective imo.
