evening all, hope it's ok for me to post a thread.. i have a slightly naive question about chase horses returning/going to hurdles, which is why don't they do massively well? maybe i'm underestimating hurdles but i thought they'd be like jumping thimbles for a chase horse. i watched madison du berlais today, one of my favourites, jump the hurdles a bit like he did fences and then he faded at the end. despite him not being as good as he once was i thought he'd find it easier than that. is it because when a horse has returned to hurdles it's because it isn't as good as it used to be, and that doesn't change even if you change the obstacles, or, that hurdles require a different tactic that chase horses have forgotten or aren't used to? second question is has there been a horse that has gone from regular chasing back to hurdling and done really well? i'm sure there was one in the last few years but i can't remember which it was, so i thought i'd ask here if anyone remembers or has got some examples. cheers, petito
Big Bucks- Failed to finish when going off favourite for the Hennessy @ newbury so nicholls decided to go back to hurdling! What a decision!!
that was indeed a very good decision. he was super today despite a slight slowdown, but fortunately he was kidding and ended up just as good as usual. and my fault, i meant to say apart from big buck's and i think restless harry who did a couple of chases but both are hurdlers, is there a chase horse that has afterwards done well over hurdles.
Big Buck's was the first name to spring to mind. He actually negotiates hurdles as though they are small fences. I started to answer your first question but soon realised that the points I was making weren't actually answering your question. With MdB I think he has deteriorated, for whatever reason. Sometimes they are brought back to hurdling to regain their confidence and/or to freshen them up for another chasing effort. Didn't see the race but I suspect that, having been a decent chaser, the hurdles weren't the problem; keeping up with the faster pace might well have been. Not a very good answer, sorry.
Not aware of any but someone on here might think of one or two from the past. Normally, horses with the scope and temperament for chasing will, once developed into a chaser, stick to chasing and only revert to hurdling temporarily to freshen up or regain confidence (after a fall for example). Obviously top class hurdlers, if they have the scope and temperament, can go on to become top class chasers. But I doubt many go the other way. If it's a horse just not good enough at chasing and sent hurdling as a result I'm guessing it's a last resort in order to recover some expenses.
Im pretty sure Celestial Halo had a couple of goes at chasing but just wasnt for him so he went back to hudling! Please correct me if im wrong!
Is this article a wind up? You are asking people to give an example of a chaser who has reverted back to hurdles and succeeded on the same day Big Bucks has just won a record 14 straight hurdles races, since falling in the Hennessy. Madison De Berlais is just past his best, he has not showed his best form since winning the Aintree bowl in 2009, I think they went back to hurdling, because his handicap mark over fences was to high, because of past glorys. As for the difference between hurdling and fencing, particularly over 2 miles a horse needs to be extremely slick, over 3 miles it isn't as essential, but a proper Champion hurdle horse, needs to get from A to B as fast as possible, so they cannot jump them like they would a fence. If a horse was to jump a hurdle in a similar fashion to how they would jump a fence, then they would lose far to much ground on there opponents, and at Champion Hurdle level, a horse cannot afford to lose any ground on there opponents. In some ways I see the Champion Hurdle as a last horse standing kind of thing, once you make even one slight error, and I mean slight, that horse's chances are as good as gone. Were as over the further distances horse won't realy lose alot of ground, as there not going so quick
ron, you're right i think it was the pace that did for madison du berlais and not the hurdles, which to start with he flew over. and interesting that big buck's jumps hurdles like small fences. that seems to make my second thought more likely, that a horse not doing well over fences and returns to hurdles, if it hasn't the speed or stamina any longer, it might help a bit but won't necessarily make a winner. woolcombe folly, yes celestial halo tried chasing so i must have watched them and then thought of him as a chaser. the other one is war of attrition who might be the horse i was thinking of. i've just looked him up on the racing post and he was a chaser and gold cup winner to boot, then in hurdles and won a couple but then came 12th and went back chasing for his last race and came 2nd on his retirement. King Shergar, sorry no not a joke, it's something i've been wondering and was reminded of today. i didn't remember that big buck's fell in a chase apologies but he's a hurdler, not a chase horse who has gone to hurdles which is what i was asking about. thanks for the info though, yes madison du berlais was not hurdling like the others and so it looks with what you said that for all horses returning to hurdles they need a combination of different jumping technique [i wasn't sure whether they lost ground but hurdling looks more like a seesaw than fence jumping] and the reason the horse returned to hurdles after a long period of chasing is also a factor.
Well Petito, when Andy Stewart purchased Big Bucks from France, and he was given to Nicholls to train there goal was to win the Gold Cup, that is Andy Stewarts biggest goal as an owner, and if you ask me, had they persevered over fences then I believe he would have won a Gold Cup by now, probably not 3, but I definitely believe he would have won atleast 1. Though does 1 Gold Cup outweigh 3 World Hurdles? Tricky question He destroyed Albertas Run over fences at Aintree, and Albertas Run had just won the RSA, so BB was arguably the number 1 staying novice chaser of his generation, and he was well in contention in the Hennessy when he unseated rider at the last in the Hennessy. I think the decision to go hurdling and stay hurdling was a selfish act from Paul Nicholls, he felt he had the Gold Cup division in the palm of his hand with Kauto and Denman, so he didnt need a 3rd superstar to apear on the scene. He didn't have a world hurdle horse, so he persuaded Andy Stewart to go down that route. I still 100% believe that had Paul Nicholls not had Kauto and Denman then Big Bucks would have ran and won atleast 1 maybe more Gold Cups. He realy wasn't that bad a jumper, he made one mistake, and Paul Nicholls used that as a way out of allowing him to clash with KS and Denman. For crying out loud how many times has KS fallen? Did he ever try and re deploy him over hurdles? Er no Big Bucks is probably the most talented National Hunt horse, I have ever seen, he is an absolute star, it is just ashame that Nicholls selfishness has prevented him from winning the blue riband event, the Cheltenham Gold Cup
Whether it's selfishness or shrewdness, I don't know Shergar. Maybe the owner made the decision. One has to remember that in the Hennessy he was 3l behind and staying on when unseating at the last (blunder). He had already hit the 9th and was being ridden 2 out. To put this into perspective, this was a 5yo carrying 11.7; no 5yo has ever won the Hennessy Gold Cup
Other things worth noting: 1. BB's best time speed figure over fences is 153 and over hurdles 154. 2. BB's best RPR figure over fences is 164 and over hurdles 178. But all chase races were as a 4yo and 5yo
horses who switch to hurdles after having a a good few runs over chases normally need time to adjust again over the smaller obstacles imo. im currently keeping a a eye on mikael d' haguenet as he wasnt the best jumper over fences and they have just switched him back to hurdles where it took 3 runs for him to win and this former top novice hurdler is due to run over the istrabraq festival gd1 hurdle in ireland to see if hes champion hurdle material.
There were exactly 22 days between Albertas Run winning the RSA and him running at Aintree. We have since learnt that Albertas Run is a non-stayer at 3 miles so I would argue he bust a gut to win a poor RSA and could not possibly have been on top of his game at Aintree. Sporting Life comment on Big Buck's Hennessy run was "ridden in 3rd and held when blundered and unseated rider last" - hardly "well in contention" Do you seriously think Paul Nicholls tells Andy Stewart what to do with his horses? If Big Buck's had remained a chaser he would have figured amongst the "also rans" behind Kauto Star, Denman, Imperial Commander and Long Run. Instead he has won his owner over a million quid and laid down a sequence of victories in top class races the like of which we won't see again for many a year. The pictures of him lobbing along on the bit with Tom Scudamore throwing the kitchen sink at Grands Crus just go to reinforce what an amazing horse this fella is.
Petito, Shergar is spot on when he talks of the different techniques between jumping a hurdle and jumping a fence. A very good hurdler will "flick" over the obstacle whilst barely losing momentum and not really gaining much height - watch replays of Binocular who is a great example of a very fluent hurdler, makes it look so effortless. The best hurdlers don't lose momentum at their hurdles and you will often see a rival who is less fluent lose a length at each hurdle. Some of the very best chasers look to be almost "hurdling" their fences (I remember Desert Orchid standing off the fences in the home straight at Kempton and flying over them without really losing any forward momentum) but clearing a fence requires a little but more of a "jump" than clearing a hurdle and hence the horse tends to clear the obstacle in quite a high parabola, meaning loss of forward momentum. Sending a chaser over hurdles is usually either 1) to get confidence back into him after a fall, 2) get him race fit without ruining his chasing handicap mark (suggest this is what Pipe was doing with MdB yesterday) or 3) the horse just hasn't taken to fences and connections feel his future lies back over hurdles.
I am with Shergar in that I think this horse has the raw ability to have won at least one Gold Cup. Nicholls has worked wonders with numerous poor jumpers in the past so I see no reason why the same miracles couldn't have been worked with Big Buck's. Some horses just don't like it but he was never abysmal, just a bit awkward and not very fluent. He is probably better off over hurdles even if many would love to see him back over fences. The Hennessy performance has to be taken in the context of a really poor ride from Sam Thomas. I am pretty sure that Nicholls was absolutely livid because that was the end of their relationship. He could take Sam falling off Kauto Star in the Betfair the week before but the Big Buck's debacle was one step too far. This is an becoming a cliche but with Ruby on he would surely have won. I know the man was going through it a bit at the time but there is no way in a million years that he should have fallen of Big Buck's that day. He rode him with no confidence at all and I can't imagine that did the horse any favours at all.
Racing Post (Hennessy) "Held up in rear, hit 9th, headway 17th, ridden 2 out, 3 lengths 3rd and staying on when blundered badly and unseated rider last"
funny how learned scribes can have such different views of the same race. I was trying to find a replay of the race but can't - my memory has him down as being held when unseated Ron, the first 3 had certainly gone on. Also remember who those first 3 were - MdB, Air Force One and Snoopy Loopy. With a couple of glorious exceptions they were always running for place money behind the big guns after that.
I can't find it either. From memory he had a bit of ground to make up but he was well placed on the stands side and with his engine you would have thought he'd have got there up the longish Newbury straight. He certainly deserved to win. I remember wondering to myself how Sam Thomas had got him beat so that must have been my lasting impression.
I remember the Hennessy when BB unseated at the last very well, I only watched a replay on the closing stages a few weeks back on Hennessy day, when they show highlights from past Hennessy Gold Cups on RUK. He was held up at the rear, and he had worked his way up into 3rd, coming to the last, he was a couple of lenghs behind the leader, and certainly wasn't hard held. Fair enough he didnt look a certain winner, but he looked to have a chance. You also must factor in just how much BB finds for pressure, he often hits flat spots, and then finds an extra gear, and he had the whole run in to bridge just 2 lenghs. Oddog....How do you know, he would have been well held by KS and Denman in the Gold Cup, are you suggesting he isn't as talented as that pair? As for Albertas Run, ofcourse he stays 3 miles, he just runs in the Ryanair because he isn't classy enough for the Gold Cup, it has nothing to do with stamina. You don't win an RSA if you don't stay 3 miles, particularly on a track like Cheltenham. Aintree is a far less testing 3 miles, and Albertas Run has proved he can produce the goods at Aintree only 3 weeks after Cheltenham, having won the Melling Chase and then finished runner up, in the last 2 seasons. I stand by my opinion that had Paul Nicholls not had KS and Denman then they wouldn't have even considered going back over hurdles, and the horse would have at the very least won 1 Gold Cup
The only way to find out is to ask him. You may have to listen for what isn't said to form any conclusion. I would re-iterate the fact that he was merely a 5yo in that Hennessy and no 5yo has ever won a Hennessy. Hardly a performance to indicate that he had no future as a chaser.
