Catalan Independence and the EU

Just want to get people's opinions on this one - the question is should the EU. recognize the independence declaration of Catalonia ? I wanted to create a poll on this but it didn't work - nevertheless we can vote on this, which is more than the Catalans are allowed to do in their so called democracy.

a) Yes, on the basis of a nation having a democratic right to self determination.
b) No, because an independence declaration would be illegal under present Spanish constitutional law and is a Spanish internal matter.
c) Individual nations should decide for themselves whether to recognize Catalonia or not.
d) The EU. should wait to see what Spain does with the option of being able to exert pressure on them if human rights violations are further abused.

 

The vote wasn't democratic. Those that would vote to stay were disuaded from voting. The process was flawed.
They already have devolution so main government should recognise the area and work towards an agreed end. Thete are other areas of Spain that want more independance so it opens up a can of worms. A united States of Spain would be one way but it is a small country to do this. They have had civil war before of course but most of the population would not support that action.

 

You have areas of countries that have some form of devolution, but not an ultimate right to plough their own farrow. Where does the EU go if all of these areas start to demand that they are given special treatment. Capital cities can be very different to other parts of a country, yet as with London the money earned is used across the country, not just London. Catalonia is wealthy by comparison to the south, and I suspect they wish to keep more of what comes their way. As Chris says, this was not a proper vote.

 

Whatever sympathy historically I have for the Catalan people, I do not think that 92% of 43% is a sufficient mandate for independence.

 

Frenchie it was not a proper vote because the Spanish government did not allow it to be that way. Imagine the criticism if Putin or Erdogan had sent the police in with rubber bullets to shoot innocent people who simply wanted to vote on something. Catalonia is wealthy in as much as it produces more than the rest but the infrastructure of the region does not benefit from this - they pay over 20% of the total taxes in Spain yet have only 8% of those taxes spent on them. This imbalance could be excused if there really were massive differences in living standards within Spain but there aren't. There are far fewer differences than you would find within Germany, the UK. or France. So, Catalonia has to carry Spain - in return, their language (which is the 9th most spoken language in Europe) is not even classified as an official language. They have lost regional rights which even the Basque regions and Navarre possess - promises have been broken and the Catalans have asked 18 times to have a referendum, and been refused, have asked 18 times for dialogue, and been refused the same number of times. Why, because Spain is indivisable as a result of a scrap of paper written only 2 years after the death of Franco - everybody is destined for evermore to live as a Spaniard whatever their ethnic identity, like in a big prison. So many pious Europeans will champion independence causes when they are at a safe distance - the Kurds, Tibet etc. will recognize independence declarations when made by countries like Slovenia, Croatia or in the former USSR. Yet when independence gets closer to home the silence becomes deafening. But apparently Spain is different - because it is a democracy - so much of a democracy that it cannot trust in referendums, censors all books written about the time of Franco etc. etc. Do we have to wait until the first deaths occur before we criticize Spain ? The Catalans are still EU. citizens and are entitled to protection from the EU. in the event of further human rights violations happening there - it would be wise to remember that, rather than the whole club sticking together like the monarchies of old.

 

For me personally, the way the Spanish police acted on behalf of the Spanish government destroyed any sympathy on behalf of the general Spanish people. It was completely over the top brutality!

 

There is nothing more that the Catalans want than a full referendum where everyone can vote Fez. It is not their fault that this has not been possible. The reason that only 43% of the people voted was because of the presence of the Spanish police preventing it.

 

As much as I disagree with the actions of the Spanish police I still think that the Catalan authorities were pushing the boat out a bit and being provocative. There are historical tensions from the oppression of the language and culture onwards. Not my sphere of expertise and any opinion I have is that of an interested casual observer. I don't quite get the idea of breaking away from a democratic nation - not that Spain has a good track record in this respect - but I feel the same applies to Scotland. Had Catalonia been breaking away from a theocracy or puppet democracy then sure. As I say, I do not claim to be an expert.

 

You can only judge the difference Fez. The Scots were allowed to vote and so, whoever won then democracy was the real winner. Imagine if we had not allowed it and the Scots had done it anyway. Would we have sent a para military police force up there to drag people out of polling booths and fire off rubber bullets at crowds ? I don't think so - nor would we have had nearly 200 independence supporting mayors arrested prior to the event. Nor would we send a special squad up to Scotland with the instructions to arrest Nicola Sturgeon if she declared independence. We would also not have 2 ships full of soldiers positioned just off the harbour of Edinburgh. This is what the Catalans are up against and it does not sound like a democracy. If Scotland had done the same then Westminster would have just let it happen and said the result was invalid. And if Bavaria did it then the rest of Germany would rejoice - Borussia Dortmund would be champions, we would be rid of Seehofer and Beckenbauer, and Germans would no longer be associated with Lederhosen

 

Could they do it anyway?

Lot for them to set up, but I guess they could.

 

It may also be that Catalonia has a much more deep rooted idea of grass roots democracy which does not fit with the Spanish model Fez. This is the region which was the only real living example of Anarcho Communist theory for a short time in the 30s - and this form of grass roots democracy is still influentual there. Together with the Basque region they have the highest concentration of worker's cooperatives in the World - Catalonia has 5,000 for a population of 7.5 million. The Basque region also has the Mondragon Corporation - the largest cooperative in the World with 85,000 workers. This is all representative of an idea of grass roots democracy which is sharply at variance with Spain. Whilst I believe that the Catalans are probably split on independence (or at least were) they are nearly solidly behind the idea of being allowed to vote on it.

 

Just as a matter of interest, does anyone know if there was a threshold imposed, not that it mattered in the mayhem that took place?

 

I'm glad there is a new found realisation of the importance of a referendum in a democratic process. The difference with the UK was it's parliament voted overwhelmingly to implement a national referendum. This did not happen in Spain.

 

I had a very strange feeling that you would start drawing parallels here where none exist.

 

well, you had a slight clue as I mentioned it earlier, no flies on you!!

It seems you are supporting the aims and result of an illegal referendum whilst doing you best to deny the legitimacy of the legal Brexit referendum decision.

 

I have never denied the legitimacy of the Brexit decision - it was a mistake to have the referendum and the result was an almighty cockup but there was nothing irregular about it. Britain had a legal right to have a referendum and to vote the way they did - the EU. did not forbid it, nore did they send riot police over to stop it. Had they done so I also would have been a Brexiter. You are drawing parallels where none exist. I do not necessarily think splitting from Spain would be a good thing - dialogue would be better. But they should have the right to choose without facing repression for it.

 

If the majority of people in a region of any country wish to cecede I can't see how anyone can say that they should not be allowed to do so whether that be Catalunya, California or Cornwall. I may think that they are wrong, mis-guided or plain duped by unscrupulous politicians but that has nothing to do with it. Some people may willingly give up income and wealth for self-determination.

As for Spain there are still unsealed wounds from the civil war. Catalunya suffered grievously at the hands of the Madrid dictatorship. Apart from that many in Catalunya have been trying to regain independence since Isobella annexed the region through her marriage to Ferdinand. Barcelona does not trust Madrid and never has, with good reason.

What the EU should do and what it will do are very different things. Many member states have regions that would like independence so those states are not likely to want to interfere in Spain.

 

One question that has passed everyone by is this. If Catalunya goes ahead and declares independence from Spain, will the Basques follow suit? After all they did have ETA trying to bomb their way out of Spain and if all that goes ahead will the French part of Catalunya want to unify with their Catalan brothers and sisters and then the French Basques, after all for them 4 provincias + 3 départments (more or less) = Euskal Herria.

 

Found this, https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ent-catalonia-practicalities-of-leaving-spain , there are a lot of things to do if it does/did happen!

 

I don't think it's escaped people's notice that the taste for independence could spread Zen. This is one of the main worries for the EU. There has been one demonstration in the Basque region in support of Catalonia - but nothing more, and that region already has far greater autonomy than Catalonia does. As far as I know there have been no calls, or movements, calling for independence in other Catalan regions such as in France or Sardinia. What consequences it may have in regions of Belgium, Italy or Rumania I don't know. We appear to have a stand off situation - can the Catalan government risk a formal declaration without knowing what the other 57% think ? They will never know this because the Spanish will not allow a formal referendum. Will the Spanish risk imposing direct control - with the necessary police occupation (with military support) against a population which could be against them ? A formal referendum would tell both sides exactly where they stand, but as long as Madrid remains stubborn this will not happen. So the EU. has to start thinking quickly. The Realpolitik says that they should not encourage separatism and should not be seen to inferfere in the internal politics of a member state - but what does humanity say ? They have said they will not recognize a unilateral declaration but.....what are the consequences of that ? If they do not recognize Catalonia then the Catalans are still Spanish citizens, in their eyes, and, therefore also EU. citizens, who qualify for the protection of the EU. against whatever deluge is coming. According to the EU. constitution article 7 (or 9) a country can be suspended from the EU. on the basis of human rights violations against its own civil population - it would be good if the EU. started establishing red lines for Spain in advance rather than after the event. If the Spanish remove autonomy and establish direct control then this can only be done with force and the consequences could well be catastrophic. For Catalonia it may well be now or never because the consequences of backing down now could be to lose everything for a long time.