If Canford Cliffs and Frankel clashed over a mile this season, who would win? My money would be on Frankel but only if Tom Queally rides him with more restraint than he did in today's St. James Palace Stakes - Canford Cliffs would've caught him if in the same race IMO. But it's a close call as Canford Cliffs achieved a personal best when beating Goldikova in the Queen Anne. Am I talking rubbish?
I've always been a Canford Cliffs man (for this clash) even after the Guineas demolition job. I've already stated in the thread about the St James Palace I think Frankel took a heck of a lot out of himself in the Guineas. Canford would win, as Hughes says 'put any horse in front of him and he'll get him'
Frankel looks a tired horse to me. I think we've seen the best of him already. My money would be on Canford Cliffs all the way. It wouldn't surprise me if Frankel ducked the Sussex Stakes in favour of the Juddmonte International a couple of weeks later at York, especially as Khalid Abdullah is the sponsor. Even then I'd be opposing him.
CC is very good, but he is not capable of the performances Frankel is. I'm glad a few of you fancy CC as atleast il get a decent price on the day. Frankel looked voulnerable today because of the premature kick for him by Queally, CC wouldn't last home in a G1 if he was sent into top gear with 4 furlongs to go, so the fact Frankel overcame those ridiculous tactics gives mr confidence that if ridden with more restraint he will be unstoppable. Even CC will not be able to live with the burst of speed Frakel is capable of, they will get to the 2 pole in the Sussex and Frankel will just say bye bye to Hughsie and CC, mark my words! Either way let's hope Frankel stays at a mile for now, as the clash with CC is what racibg needs, and if anyone thinks the Juddmonte will be the easier option, think again. I'd imagine the likes of So You Think and possibly Workforce will take there chance in that race so there will be no easy options for HC werether he decides to send Frankel
I have always been a fan of Canford Cliffs and was confident that he would get the better of Goldikova yesterday. However, Frankel is probably my favourite flat horse ever. I think it was a testament to his immense ability that he was able to win yesterday. There can be little doubt that their tactics went out the window and Queally kicked very very early indeed. Frankel was forced to sustain his finishing kick for a full 1/2 mile. Whilst the winning margin was closer than we would have liked to see, i still feel he was able to win a race that he really shouldn't have. I must say that i am in agreement with Shergar on this one. Canford Cliffs is an exceptional miler and it will take a very very good horse to beat him. Frankel might well be the best we have seen and i will maintain my faith for the time being. It will be a cracking match-up and the Sussex should be a race to savour. I get the feeling that connections may be favouring the International. It is a race Khalid Abdulla is very keen to win and i can easily see him going there instead. If he does then he might well meet So You Think plus a few others and that should be one hell of a race too. Wherever he goes i am sure that there should be a race to eagerly anticipate.
London, I think what you've said is bang on. As WC said on the BBC yesterday he just needs to trust the horse more and run him - as Sir Henry said 'normally'. With the turn of foot he has and his stride they could've waited for the two furlong marker and then gone IMO. Canford Cliffs and Goldikova would both have picked him off yesterday. Remember though Frankel would be getting 8lbs in the Sussex from CC and providing he's ridden with more restraint then I couldn't see Canford Cliffs conceding that.
The hype bubble of Frankel could well be about to burst folks, as much as I'm a fan of him. It may even be leaking some air already, if he has performed to his best already... People on here have talked about the word 'great' and how over used it is. I'd agree with that completely. Until Frankel puts up another stellar performance ala the Guineas against an older horse i.e. Canford Cliffs I think people will always remember his 'great' performance but not perhaps of a 'great' horse... A bit like Shergar in the Derby, remembered primarily for his one 'great' performance, slightly less so revered as being a 'great' horse, high class as he was. In contrast, Sea the Stars didn't produce 'great' performaces, his greatness was his consistency at the top table, beating older horses. Time and time again. That was 'greatness' in my book, not a one off flash in the pan performance which may in time be Frankel's Guineas. Did he really beat a fantastic bunch...Or did he demolish a mediocre field? Lets see Frankel repeat his heroics against horses better than his contemporary 3 yo horses seem to be before the word great is thrown about like confetti again. 'Put anything in front of him and I'm sure he'd go by him' Richard Hughes on Canford Cliffs. I can only wonder who he was thinking off when he said that
If Frankel and Canford Cliffs both line up for the Sussex Stakes the weight-for-age allowance will be nothing to do with whether a three-year-old beats a four-year-old or vice versa. What appears to be overlooked here is how Canford Cliffs, the three-year-old, struggled with Rip Van Winkle, the four-year-old, in last year’s Sussex Stakes. It is my contention that the track does not suit Canford Cliffs and if he and Frankel do cross swords, junior will win if he takes to the course.
I agree 8lbs would be quite an anchor. However, my worry about Frankel is that Queally should have been able to ease him down a fur out and coast home. But he couldn't. His stride was shortening and he looked at the end of his tether. I don't buy this "he got bored" excuse. He looked knackered and I agree with Beefy that he has now had 2 hard races this year. I agree that Queally rode a terrible race and maybe panicked. But watching it live I thought he was doing the right thing to close the gap but then I was gob smacked when Frankel closed it so quickly and was 6l, or whatever, clear in no time. I think that acceleration may have surprised Queally also. But I'm still left with "why couldn't he have coasted home?" and earned a racing summary like "burst clear 3 fur out eased final furlong, impressive". He's no Dubai Millenium, that's for sure.
Ron, it is strange how a couple of days ago Frankel was the Messiah and potentially the greatest ever and now after one dodgy piece of jockeyship he is just a very naughty boy. In what respect was the 2000 Guineas a hard race? He never saw another horse. It is perfectly believable that the horse idled in front as history has shown us time and time again that some horses do not like being out on their own. That is why some horses, like Canford Cliffs, are held up and brought with a late burst of acceleration. I have seen on a number of threads how various posters seem to think that Frankel is a seven furlong horse. They need to get Ascot and Newmarket measured. I am sure that the Royal Lodge was a mile race for two-year-olds when Frankel won by half the track last year. Has the 2000 Guineas been shortened to seven furlongs while I was not looking?
QM. It's all opinions. We all want to see a super horse win. Many (inc me) felt that Timeform's rating of 142 for Frankel was ridiculous. Today's run did nothing to make me revise my opinion. I guess time will tell.
QM- 'In what respect did Frankel have a hard race in the Guineas'? Answer: In the same respect he had yesterday, the horse was out on his feet yesterday, treading water during the last furlong. Oh wait, he was just idling! Aye dead on, of course he was! That Guineas performance had a hell of an effect on him and I really hope it hasn't left a mark for good.
Why do people keep banging on about the Weight for age. The weight for age rule is because 4yos are better horses than 3yos, they are bigger stronger and tend to have had more match practise. For me even with the 8 pound rise CC is a better 4yo than he was at 3, and it is the same with most horses, it's just we rarely get to see it as the best 3yos tend to be retired to stud, but the top class 3yos who are kept in training usually get even better
Beef.....I'm sorry but I must take issue with your comments on Shergar, he did not just put up one great performance, he won 5 races at 3 and all 5 performances were performances that only a great horse could have done. His runs in the Chester Vase and Sandowns Classic trial over 10f were outstanding, winning by 10 and 12 lenghs. His run in the Irish Derby was equally as impressive as his Epsom Derby performance, he could of won by 10 lenghs but with Lestor Piggot on board this time, Shergar was not put into top gear like he was in the Derby. Instead Shergar galloped all over his competition and Piggott sat motionless in the saddle as Shergar practically jogged across the finish line, the commentator described it as an exercise canter that's how easy it was. It was like watching a class G1 horse running in a seller, but ofcourse these were genuine G1 performers, Shergar was just that good. His King George Victory was also a fantastic performance, beating 1980 Derby runner up and best older horse in training Master Willie, since losing narrowly in the Derby Master Willie had gone onto win the Eclipse, Juddmonte International and Coronation Cup on his next 3 starts, yet Shergar laughed at him as he strolled to success in the KG. So no Shergar was not remebered for just one great performance
Beeforsalmon, keep taking the pills. Frankel was being flogged to win by Tom Queally – that is why he got a nine-day ban and Frankie Dettori was absolved for giving Rewilding a couple of taps to win “comfortably” in the Prince Of Wales’s Stakes. King Shergar, it was not the Juddmonte International in 1980, it was the Benson & Hedges Gold Cup until 1985. He did not win the three named races on his next three starts as he won the Group 2 Jockey Club Stakes to start his 1981 campaign. The Coronation Cup and Eclipse victories were in 1981. There is nothing like changing history to fit an argument.
Quarter Moon if you think Frankel was not tying up badly in the last furlong on Tuesday you clearly have taken one too many pills or simply are blind to the facts. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest it's the second scenario, shall I
beeforsalmon, Frankel might well have been “tying up badly” but that is not the same as “out on his feet”. Clearly they do not teach the same English language in Northern Ireland that is taught in England.
