http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22628302 This is a fascinating insight into the ways that German football has changed in a comparatively short space of 13 years. Having worked for many years in a German industrial company, I know how methodical they are about problem solving and may be it's a bit early to claim that they are now the market leader in European football but the writing is certainly on the wall after the way both Bayern and Dortmund destroyed the two Spanish giants in the Champions League semi-finals. So look carefully at what Bristol City are now saying about their Vision for the future. It will not bring sustainable success overnight, but as I have said on other threads, the Club now appear to be putting down secure foundations on which to build our Club in the coming years. And just a final word about my limited experience of the Bundesliga. In October 2011, I went to see Hertha Berlin play FC Mainz in the Berlin Olympic stadium. At the time this was a mid table game watched by 49,000. Ticket prices from 10 to 25 euros for most of the seats for adults. Hertha then slid down the league and were relegated. This last season they've won promotion back to Bundesliga One with an average crowd of 40,00 per match. high of 74,000 and low of 29,900. How wonderful it would be if City achieve a promotion within two years of going down and with crowds that may exceed those of the season just finished. Bristol City with it's "Vision", is setting off along a path that will lead our Club to sustainable success. They need and deserve our support more now than ever before, otherwise the dreams that we all have for Bristol City, will become unachieveble the longer we stay in League One. COME ON YOU REDS SUPPORTERS!
Something needed to be done because the happenings since we got promoted have been nothing short of disastrous. The situation could not be allowed to continue based on the revenues vs salaries that were the demise of our club as we knew it. I will confess I was a serious negative commentator when it came to everything about Bristol City because I just saw us falling in to the same trap over and over again when it looked like the answer was so simple it beggared belief that no one in management saw it coming. Well the chips fell exactly where they deserved to land and we face life below the expectations of most City supporters. So are we about to see the phoenix rise from the ashes, well only time will give us the answer and it remains to be seen if we are finally headed down the path to salvation. Despite my reluctance, along with the possible majority of posters on this site, I must confess that perhaps the rebirth is already under way because I have never seen so much activity in a team rebuild at Ashton Gate for many years and am just am a bit angry that no-one else could see that it should have been done a long time ago. Ignoring the cold hard facts got us in this mess and now perhaps with some pro-active thinking we can turn the ship around and head for open water rather than the rocks.
Can Bristol City re-invent itself in the same way German football has done? No. Bristol City due to the way Steve Lansdown has stuctured the club cannot be owned by its supporters e,g rule 51%. Thus only elements of the German model of "the club" are, and at present can be relevent. Bristol City have set out some straightforward and practical aims, it remains to be seen if they can attain sensible outcomes.
City can reinvent themslves but it will be nothing like a German club. look at Dortmund fans there are the club in essence. That Club includes fans thinking right at the front of the way it is ran. Take the yellow wall would Dortmund ever comtemplate putting boixes up in end? Never. Would they comtemplate not having an end at all? Never. Where City fans right at the front of designing Ashton Vale? No. Will they be for Ashton Gate? No. That goes on and on. They do play in a sponsored stadium but they are worlds apart from the UK. City could end up looking dynamic and forward thinking but they will still be controlled and owned by one man in Steve Lansdown.
I will repeat what I said elsewhere the club is going through a massive change on and off the field at the moment New Head Coach, Deputy, and a Director of football plus new coaching staff, in addition because of the relegation we have the chance of huge changes to our playing staff and according to both Board and Management a focus on youth. However there is one part of the club that still needs a massive overhaul scouting, for many years our scouts have been going through the motions and this has been happening for 30 plus years our scouting network collapsed during our troubled times in the early eighties and for what ever reason it was never rebuilt. This if you like is shown clearly by the ratio of rocks to gems we have signed in the last 30 years whilst the good players from this region were being picked up by other clubs, even the Gas, We were looking at every one elses rejects yes we did get some gems but far too few. If we are now serious about being a community club and concentrating on interacting with schools and youth teams in the local area perhaps things will change because they will have to change or we will not see the brave new day dawn it will remain murky. However our last manager started trying to change things but he seemed to take his mind off the team problems to deal with other club problems and our current manager has always looked towards youth in building his teams, OK yes that has in part been financial restraints on him but he has developed and sold on players consistantly. I think one of the things that might have attracted him to Bristol City is that here he would be able to mould another club into his way of thinking and playing but if we start having success he won't have to keep selling his best players just to keep the club afloat, with a bigger potential fan base and a wealthy backer he might be able to carry it out to his aimed conclusions a team that can compete at the highest levels without breaking the bank to do so.
Can Bristol City re-invent itself in the same way German football has done? No. Bristol City due to the way Steve Lansdown has stuctured the club cannot be owned by its supporters e,g rule 51%. Thus only elements of the German model of "the club" are, and at present can be relevent. City could end up looking dynamic and forward thinking but they will still be controlled and owned by one man in Steve Lansdown. And if Mr Lansdown walked out of Bristol City and demanded his money back where would the club be down in L2 or lower NO prospect of a new Stadium or a redeveloped Stadium in fact we would probably be in a ground share with Forest Green Rovers. How much money do you think the supporters could raise to support the football club?
Bristol City football club creates enough income to support a team capable of promotion/establishing itself in the Championship. Using other clubs as benchmarks a factual answer is yes. in fact we would probably be in a ground share with Forest Green Rovers .. That is an opinion, not a fact. Bristol City historically has existed at division two and three levels minus Steve Lansdowns wealth. Bristol City football club using income levels post Lansdown take over would still create more income than Yeovil needed to gain promotion. No opinion needed to come to an inforned view there. How much money do you think the supporters could raise to support the football club? The accounts show millions are raised via ticket sales. Most other revenues are also associated to support. Without that support the revenues would cease. The question was can Bristol City re-invent itself in the same way German football has done? The answer was no mate. It cannot be ran in the same way many German clubs e.g Borussia Dortmund are. German clubs can't b eowned by a company, or one individual by law. It is almost impossibloe to make comparisons because the models are so different.
We are on the right lines in terms of putting in a sound/sustainable foundation for the future (not sure how close to the German model that is). Sometimes we are all too close / too passionate to make a reasoned judjement - I live 60 miles from bristol, and all my mates support other teams. What I can tell you is that they all think that our plan for the future is the right thing to do.
It's good to get such debate on here. Thank you. I appreciate that the ownership 50% + 1 is very unlikely to happen in English football and Bristol City in particular without a tremendous change in thinking within English football. However, the other main facets of the German playing revival, introducing high quality Academies with more emphasis on ball skills and tactics than stamina, a monitoring system to ensure Academies are well run, more sensible pricing, less reliance on foreign players especially in the top tier and probably with wage levels not at the astranomical heights, appear to be taking German clubs along a more successful road than the last twenty years. The one big advantage that all European national leagues have over England is the number of leagues and clubs. Germany for example has two national leagues and from the third tier is regionalised. The same in Spain, Portugal and probably Italy, Holland and France. In England we are still clinging to the "92" philosophy in spite of the Premier league doing everything it can to cast most of us adrift. City's Vision appears to be aiming to follow a similar path as Germany, and as a lifelong Bristol City supporter, I can only selfishly hope at the moment, that we regain our second tier status, before Leagues One, Two and the Conference become minor regional leagues as in Europe.
To widen the debate - I would like to see League 2 and the Conference Regionalised to be North and South - the 2 feeder leagues are North/South as well so would not be a massive change
An advantage the Germans have is one body overseeng football, its FA for the common good v the English Premier league, FA and football league. The premier league serves itself. Another reason why the German model is incompatible with England. The German, Dutch, Spanish FA's dictate how youth development goes ... Here its the EPL. Some of the gates some of the leagues mentioned at second division are tiny in comparison to Englands second, third and fourth. A beauty of English football is/was it's strength in depth. Non leagues clubs here can get gates comparable to the Dutch seconf division.
in fact we would probably be in a ground share with Forest Green Rovers .. That is an opinion, not a fact. Of course it is an opinion that is what PROBABLY means it says this is a likely outcome NOT a definate outcome. The Fact part is a reflection that Ashton Gate is the main asset of Bristol City and if it had to be sold to even meet part of the debt the club owes where would we play? At the Minimal with the Gas?
Ashton Gate would not have to be sold to service losses. Losses have been turned into equity. The club's debts are such that they do not threaten the club's existence. The ground has been placed into a holding company to ensure the club's safety. This was the reasoning provided by Steve Lansdown himself. Steve Lansdown has also stated publicly he would not place the club at financial risk. I see no reason to doubt Steve Lansdown reasoning above. So using facts and the clubs owners statements BCFC could still carry in minus his largesse. It is rational to use other as parallels. City could carry on much as they have before, no Forest Green, no Gas either. Indeed on turn around of four million the club hovered constantly around play offs with a previous Chairman, the club one season even finished in the black The answer to the original question is still no. Mr Lansdown changed the club's own rules (2003?) to start with on ownership.
In fact we would probably ... You have done it again fella. If x by x = # happened I would disagree with your statement. Loss and debt are different things.There are far more likely outcomes if x by x was a reality. Interesting point. German law regarding football clubs would help prevent the above fictional scenarios.
Always thought that too and relegation/promotion widened with four up four down. This would have benefited the likes of Bath and Yeovil years ago.
Why would he walk out? Why would City have to move? How did Donny and Yeovil get promoted? How much would fans need?
No. Light years behind Johnny Foreigner.Dutch yeah, but did the recent Tilburg trip, saw a club with a togetherness in relegation City don't have in promotions ... Directors, fans and players stood next to each other juliper in hand.
My point was and still is people are spending a lot of time recently blaming Steve Lansdown indirectly for Cities plight and saying things like We can't change thing because the club will always be Mr Lansdowns etc. I said potentially he could decide to quit backing Bristol City and where would we be if he then decided he wanted his money back. As has been said before be careful what you wish for.
Due to Steve Lansdown the only answer to the title question posed can be a no. I would blame Steve Lansdown directly for the position City are in, nobody else is more responsible because the board in the main are his employees and son. All answer to one person. If he wants his money back how would that work? The club is Mr Lansdown the only person to stop that is himself. Where would City be without his money? Dunno, no accountancy skills to answer It but it would depend on the same person to decide how it was repaid. Different totally in Germany mind.
Fans can attempt to change things but it can be very very hard. Fans tried for years, that is right years to get in the Eastend. Biggest obstacle was Mr Lansdown but to his credit he eventually changed his mind after a fans petition. 100% it was Mr Lansdown decision and nobody else's. I will welcome what appears to be a real change to a more open City now but don't expect fans to affect much of real importance.
