Black Caviar
- Thread starter Quelesprit
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I've had enough of this pointless and disrespectful debate. It is reminding me of the old 606.
Tomorrow it's England v Italy, then I'm off to England to see my new grand daughter. Thank goodness.
[video=youtube;QeWBS0JBNzQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeWBS0JBNzQ&feature=player_detailpage[/video]
Tomorrow it's England v Italy, then I'm off to England to see my new grand daughter. Thank goodness.
[video=youtube;QeWBS0JBNzQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeWBS0JBNzQ&feature=player_detailpage[/video]
Why is this disrespectful? Christ, any time people disagree you could say it's disrespectful which is nonsense. No one's been offensive, we've all listened to each others opinion. It's an emotive subject. There's nothing wrong/disrespectful/pointless about it. This has dominated international racing for 3 months.
That's my opinion anyway.
That's my opinion anyway.
The reason some of those races were 'a joke' as you say, is plainly obvious. The best horses out there, the likes of Scenic Blast, Hay List and Star Witness, had already been easily beaten by her countless times and didnt want to take her on again, as they realised they would just be playing for 2nd. How is that her fault if everything else is to scared to face her.*
It still doesn't alter the fact that when the best horses did take her on she beat them easily.*
If you cannot forgive a horse 1 below par run thousands of miles from home on a rain softened track, something she will have never encountered at home, then you don't understand the game.*
She still though found a way to win, and keep her unbeaten record in tact, that is the mark of a real champion, winning when your at your most vulnerable
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Black Caviar beat all the best Aussie sprinters and they were running scared.
FFS she travels 30,000 miles to a wet British summer where she runs on the stiffest track she has ever raced on and yet she still travels on the bridle all the way up and is never whipped once.
Why all the Frankel comparisons? We all know how special he is, just because she didnt't match that 11 length demolition doesn't mean she is a bad horse. She just won a Group1 in Europe at the first attempt, practically on the bridle.
The only way we will really know with her is if she stays around and has another crack.
She is a cracking mare. Just a shame we won't have chance to see her again here. Am I right in saying she usually races on tracks with a bend? I can't recall many images of her winning over a straight course.
FFS she travels 30,000 miles to a wet British summer where she runs on the stiffest track she has ever raced on and yet she still travels on the bridle all the way up and is never whipped once.
Why all the Frankel comparisons? We all know how special he is, just because she didnt't match that 11 length demolition doesn't mean she is a bad horse. She just won a Group1 in Europe at the first attempt, practically on the bridle.
The only way we will really know with her is if she stays around and has another crack.
She is a cracking mare. Just a shame we won't have chance to see her again here. Am I right in saying she usually races on tracks with a bend? I can't recall many images of her winning over a straight course.
KS i understand the game. Dont insult me.
Look at Quels post above. This is about opinion. Do you think im stupid enough to judge a horses whole career on one run?????
What im saying is, i dont think saying shes won 21 straight means she is a wonder horse. I was merely saying that the number of victories is completely irrelevant, its what she beat. La Estrella won 4 or 5 times on the bounce on the AW and no one called that horse Pegasus did they.
From watching the races i think she looks one paced. Admittedly she was rarely tested but i never saw anything which made me say wow. Cant say the same about Frankel.
The trainer said she wouldnt run unless she was absolutley 100%, given that and the other stuff he said pre race no one can say she wasnt absolutelty spot on for today. ''Never been better'' i believe was the quote so your arguement is floored completely. Jockey emptied her too.
You clearly dont understand the game, its about opinions. No one is ever right or wrong.
Look at Quels post above. This is about opinion. Do you think im stupid enough to judge a horses whole career on one run?????
What im saying is, i dont think saying shes won 21 straight means she is a wonder horse. I was merely saying that the number of victories is completely irrelevant, its what she beat. La Estrella won 4 or 5 times on the bounce on the AW and no one called that horse Pegasus did they.
From watching the races i think she looks one paced. Admittedly she was rarely tested but i never saw anything which made me say wow. Cant say the same about Frankel.
The trainer said she wouldnt run unless she was absolutley 100%, given that and the other stuff he said pre race no one can say she wasnt absolutelty spot on for today. ''Never been better'' i believe was the quote so your arguement is floored completely. Jockey emptied her too.
You clearly dont understand the game, its about opinions. No one is ever right or wrong.
22-0and has nothing to prove.
Moonlight Cloud came out of stall 5 and lost by a head. Had she been drawn higher she would have won so her connections will be saying she was beaten by the draw, even if BC had been ridden all the way to the line.
My point being Don, you are judging her on one race, just 2 weeks after she did a 30,000 mile journey, and faced unusual conditions and the stiffest track of her career. Can I just highlight, Black Caviar won today against all of the backdrop, the context, and her jockey.
I'll give you £50 if you see any horse this season (bar Frankel) beat Moonlight Cloud eased down.
I think a lot of people ought to watch the race again- I think she had a couple of lengths easily up her sleeve and think she slightly ran below par based on all of her previous performances. I'm a massive Frankel fan and the Aussies were driving me nuts saying how this mare would beat him but that's their nature, they are competitive and confident and will tell you so.
The horse is on her feet because of her journey, not the bloody race. Conenctions were a bit embarassed I think after all the smack talk but she was a pretty cosy winner, for all it came as a shock and drama when seeing it live.
Dandy Boy ran 0.25 secs faster carrying 7Ibs more so hopefully Moonlight Cloud meets him and I can collect that £50 mate!!
I know what you are saying TC and I agree that the journey, ground, course etc must have taken its toll and were against her.
I disagree she had much more in hand today (especially given jockey trainer comments afterwards) but agree she ran below form because of the above.
Personally i question her though as she didnt find much when asked, and im my opinion never really has. She has an absolutelyt brilliant motor that winds up but no change of pace and thats what i like to see in a 6F horse personally.
I know what you are saying TC and I agree that the journey, ground, course etc must have taken its toll and were against her.
I disagree she had much more in hand today (especially given jockey trainer comments afterwards) but agree she ran below form because of the above.
Personally i question her though as she didnt find much when asked, and im my opinion never really has. She has an absolutelyt brilliant motor that winds up but no change of pace and thats what i like to see in a 6F horse personally.
I'm sorry, but I can't hold back when I see this sort of nonsense written. This mare on decent ground has recorded furlongs in under 10 seconds, yet you have the audacity to call her 1 paced.*
Seriously mate do some research before you stick the boot in. 10 second furlongs were unheard of on turf before she came along
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I actually do not think people are being disrespectful as some are claiming but merely taking a view that she is not the horse claimed to be, but no one i think feels that was anything other than a good performance to win the race, and that we disagree is a good thing and makes the forum. No one has been rude or disrespectful to another poster as far as i can see, there is just different view points taken. One is that the performance today was not her real running and the other is that it was and she has been overhyped. Both points of view are being debated and that's the point of the thread. If we have to just agree with each other it's all going to get dull.
I wish she would have stayed for the July cup as hopefully firmer ground in her favour and our best to take her on would have provided more evidence for the debate. What i think is not being taken notice of is that this is a pretty much clear re-run of So You Think last year, built up in Oz to be a machine but turned out to be just a good horse. But it took us a while to find that out and if he was taken to Oz again after being edged out by rewilding we would never have known he was not what they said. Is Black Caviar what they say? no one knows now as she is off.
I am certainly not claiming her to be a bad horse as for me she came over and won the Golden Jubilee at Royal Ascot with a good performance, but that was it, and i saw many good performances this week. I was actually much more taken by the Hong Kong horse that won the Kings Stand who incidentally also had a long journey.
I wish she would have stayed for the July cup as hopefully firmer ground in her favour and our best to take her on would have provided more evidence for the debate. What i think is not being taken notice of is that this is a pretty much clear re-run of So You Think last year, built up in Oz to be a machine but turned out to be just a good horse. But it took us a while to find that out and if he was taken to Oz again after being edged out by rewilding we would never have known he was not what they said. Is Black Caviar what they say? no one knows now as she is off.
I am certainly not claiming her to be a bad horse as for me she came over and won the Golden Jubilee at Royal Ascot with a good performance, but that was it, and i saw many good performances this week. I was actually much more taken by the Hong Kong horse that won the Kings Stand who incidentally also had a long journey.
Well explained Blue, I think thats about right-I agree there is a bit more left to prove for us to understand where she stands in world racing.
But if we forget that, she's still a magnificent filly and advert for racing.
If I was her trainer I'd be staying here for another race before mopping up the back end of the Aussie season and retiring gloriously.
But if we forget that, she's still a magnificent filly and advert for racing.
If I was her trainer I'd be staying here for another race before mopping up the back end of the Aussie season and retiring gloriously.
She won a group 1 sprint at royal ascot. no-one can argue that that is not a fantastic achivement but i'm afraid her reputation preceded her. couple that with the fact that our superstar is the real deal and then some and I can understand why some people feel underwhelmed. She is one of the best performers on the planet today but it's possible that her 22-0 record flatters her to a point and it's also possible that she is merely an ultra-consistent 136 rated horse.
All in all it was still a win and like in all sports sometimes ya gotta win ugly, when things aren't going your way or just seem not meant to be, yet she still got her head in front, i for one have nothing but respect for the horse and connections and at the end of the day it's still going to read Black Caviar raced 22 times..won 22 times to date, so i wouldn't even contemplate writing off a horse on one run and especially one of this nature, she's obviously special and has captured the hearts of every race goer and non-race goer so my view is to look at the positives she has brought to horse racing and the many new fans gained, yes it's normal to query why she didn't win by 5 on the steel with such a reputation but if it was that easy every horse would be doing it.
She is a great sprinter among poor sprinters ! Moonlight cloud had 2 options the queen Anne or today's race ! Today's race was taken as she had a chance !
People comparing zoffany/frankel run ! It was round a bend and a shocking ride ! Bc ran on a straight track like frankel did ! For me in horse quality wise she isn't in the top 5 in the world
People comparing zoffany/frankel run ! It was round a bend and a shocking ride ! Bc ran on a straight track like frankel did ! For me in horse quality wise she isn't in the top 5 in the world
Article on BC from Oz
I have to say I have been appalled by some of the comments from both UK and Aussie race fans on Facebook and the Racing Post website. Those people have no right to call themselves racing fans, in my opinion.
I've posted before about just how much travelling so far can take out if a horse, it can literally be fatal for some.
The one thing that strikes me is how hypocritical some people can be (pointing no fingers). Neither Frankel or Black Caviar tick the box of proving themselves over a variety of distances - Frankel has, to date, only run over 7f and 8f and Black Caviar has only run over 5f or 6f. Both horses are beating the same horses each time, but let's be honest the same applies to almost every winning racehorse - who else would you expect to see in another sprint race but a sprinter?!
I think everyone needs to take a deep breath, calm down and then sit back and appreciate that we live in a golden age of racehorses.
I have to say I have been appalled by some of the comments from both UK and Aussie race fans on Facebook and the Racing Post website. Those people have no right to call themselves racing fans, in my opinion.
I've posted before about just how much travelling so far can take out if a horse, it can literally be fatal for some.
The one thing that strikes me is how hypocritical some people can be (pointing no fingers). Neither Frankel or Black Caviar tick the box of proving themselves over a variety of distances - Frankel has, to date, only run over 7f and 8f and Black Caviar has only run over 5f or 6f. Both horses are beating the same horses each time, but let's be honest the same applies to almost every winning racehorse - who else would you expect to see in another sprint race but a sprinter?!
I think everyone needs to take a deep breath, calm down and then sit back and appreciate that we live in a golden age of racehorses.
well said.
Very harsh to say she is overrated. End of the day she has travelled thousands of miles, had to put up with awful weather, and had to race on a specialists track with an up hill finish, on ground she will never have encountered down in Australia. Plus shes had to overcome a terrible ride by her jockey, yet she has still won.*
Its easy to say she is no Frankel, but how many times has Frankel tackled a race outside of his comfort zone? Its 1 mile races just down the road for him, against the same opposition.*
She may not have been at her brilliant best today, but that is perfectly understandable considering the circumstances
This is a very harsh thread with some equally harsh comments. The KS comment above is the fairest IMHO, with equally reasonable remarks from Ron, Oddy, RV, et al.
Surely a lot could be put down to Nolen's total inexperience with such a tough sprint course (in fact, all races on the straight mile at Ascot are demanding, as we all know) in ground softened by recent rains. He forgot the fact that he was up against a couple of decent French horses who were suited by the conditions with no question about their staying the distance.
No, the ride he gave her was much too easy, and, as such, damn nearly became the 'buffoon of the decade', in a horseracing sense?
It was a brave decision of connections to bring her over here for this race; they surely didn't have to? Read somewhere, that her opponents were not our best sprinters, with half of the best not taking part? Well, why not, why didn't these 'best sprinters' take her on?
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