I thought it was a brilliant performance to come over here and do that especially considering she clearly wasn't at her best for whatever reason. Although it has to be the jockey didn't help the situation, and i was a little annoyed by the arrogance of her connections, you could hardly imagine sir henry cecil going to Australia and behaving in such a manner. All in all though what a brilliant day it has been for horse racing.
Black Caviar
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Very harsh to say she is overrated. End of the day she has travelled thousands of miles, had to put up with awful weather, and had to race on a specialists track with an up hill finish, on ground she will never have encountered down in Australia. Plus shes had to overcome a terrible ride by her jockey, yet she has still won.*
Its easy to say she is no Frankel, but how many times has Frankel tackled a race outside of his comfort zone? Its 1 mile races just down the road for him, against the same opposition.*
She may not have been at her brilliant best today, but that is perfectly understandable considering the circumstances
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Its easy to say she is no Frankel, but how many times has Frankel tackled a race outside of his comfort zone? Its 1 mile races just down the road for him, against the same opposition.*
She may not have been at her brilliant best today, but that is perfectly understandable considering the circumstances
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Very harsh to say she is overrated. End of the day she has travelled thousands of miles, had to put up with awful weather, and had to race on a specialists track with an up hill finish, on ground she will never have encountered down in Australia. Plus shes had to overcome a terrible ride by her jockey, yet she has still won.*
Its easy to say she is no Frankel, but how many times has Frankel tackled a race outside of his comfort zone? Its 1 mile races just down the road for him, against the same opposition.*
She may not have been at her brilliant best today, but that is perfectly understandable considering the circumstances
Blimey - I agree 100%. Oh and well said Ron earlier as well.
I think there is a reaction that can sound harsh, but that is only due to the wonder horse tag which she has been given in Australia. When people look back objectively i think the conclusion will end up being is that Black Caviar is a very high class Sprinter in the mould of some other serious sprinters that have come over and won these races. They were not wonder horses and nor is she and i think that became clear today but she has still won, and to come from Australia and win at Royal Ascot is feat in itself. I hope the excuses are not rolled out about being lame etc as it's not necessary, she came and she won and she's clearlyhigh class.
There is no doubt though that of the sprinters this week the one to be most impressed with was not Black Caviar but the Hong Kong horse (name escapes me) who also had a long journey etc etc, as i think with the absence of Deacon Blues that Bated Breath is our best sprinter and he beat that horse comfortably.
I think as someone suggested on the daily thread the jockeys performance may have been prompted by believing their own hype and ours in stating this Royal Ascot was about Frankel and Black Caviar, he had seen the statement Frankel had made and had run it through in his mind and thought he needed make his own statement, but realised very quickly he did not have the horse underneath him necessary for the statement he wanted to make, and nearly got caught. He was an idiot today, but seems a decent man and i hope he is not hung drawn and quartered back home.
There is no doubt though that of the sprinters this week the one to be most impressed with was not Black Caviar but the Hong Kong horse (name escapes me) who also had a long journey etc etc, as i think with the absence of Deacon Blues that Bated Breath is our best sprinter and he beat that horse comfortably.
I think as someone suggested on the daily thread the jockeys performance may have been prompted by believing their own hype and ours in stating this Royal Ascot was about Frankel and Black Caviar, he had seen the statement Frankel had made and had run it through in his mind and thought he needed make his own statement, but realised very quickly he did not have the horse underneath him necessary for the statement he wanted to make, and nearly got caught. He was an idiot today, but seems a decent man and i hope he is not hung drawn and quartered back home.
I'm struggling to understand how anyone could believe she's not been hugely disappointing. This is the horse that the Southern Hemisphere has been saying is as good as if not better than the 140 rated Frankel. Black Caviar's run today was no better than a 118 ish performance. 120 if you're really pushing it.
That's a huge difference.
We aren't comparing Black Caviar to Midnight Cloud and the other dogs she faced today. They're a terrible group of sprinters. So poor that the best one isn't a sprinter. We're comparing her to the level of performance Frankel has produced in his career and that is solely because all of Australia has said she's his equal. As such, how can it be argued that she's not overrated?
That's a huge difference.
We aren't comparing Black Caviar to Midnight Cloud and the other dogs she faced today. They're a terrible group of sprinters. So poor that the best one isn't a sprinter. We're comparing her to the level of performance Frankel has produced in his career and that is solely because all of Australia has said she's his equal. As such, how can it be argued that she's not overrated?
Being lame is hardly an excuse. As I said on another thread, she pulled up slightly lame but after a while seemed to walk it off. She was clearly feeling something so despite the vet giving the all clear, I'm not convinced. Wouldn't be the first time a race vet's given the all clear only for something to materialise later. I just hope she is OK.
Did you know a horse can do its suspensory ligament and not appear lame. If stopped in time it can be mended (long job) but to exert further pressure could damage it beyond repair.
Given her history of leg problems, I suspect she will not be seen on a racecourse again.
I think she has been hugely disappointing in relation to the hype Quel but not in her performance.
She was overhyped and that hype was deflated today in no uncertain terms. As i have said she is not the wonder horse that the Aussie's would have you believe but if she came over without the hype she won a Golden Jubilee by a head which should have been a lengh or length and a half and thats a good horse. It was only this nonsense of hype that has left the taste of disappointment. No one would have anything but praise for an overseas horse coming to win the Golden Jubilee reasonably easily if ridden.
I am in no way qualified to say Aussie racing is not of the same standard as Europe as i know so little about Australian Racing but twice in two years now we have heard about a wonder horse, a machine never witnessed before and what has happend both? So you Think and Black Caviar have been shown to be no more than very good horses. Do you remember what So You Think was expected to do last year? went off 4-6 and got touched of by Rewilding who was a good but not great horse.
She was overhyped and that hype was deflated today in no uncertain terms. As i have said she is not the wonder horse that the Aussie's would have you believe but if she came over without the hype she won a Golden Jubilee by a head which should have been a lengh or length and a half and thats a good horse. It was only this nonsense of hype that has left the taste of disappointment. No one would have anything but praise for an overseas horse coming to win the Golden Jubilee reasonably easily if ridden.
I am in no way qualified to say Aussie racing is not of the same standard as Europe as i know so little about Australian Racing but twice in two years now we have heard about a wonder horse, a machine never witnessed before and what has happend both? So you Think and Black Caviar have been shown to be no more than very good horses. Do you remember what So You Think was expected to do last year? went off 4-6 and got touched of by Rewilding who was a good but not great horse.
You may be right about being lame Ron, i think however we are all just a bit sceptical towards those public anouncements now as we have seen them often, as i think Quartermoon pointed out usually coming from Coolmore in an attempt to preserve a reputation. It's a reaction to the defeat to say he/she was not at her best.
My take is this..... Aussies are arrogant when it come to sport... the tune that rings in my ears:
'The pommies havent recognised her as the greatest sprinter in history, she will have to go over there and prove and my god she will'
My god she didnt at all regardless of the jock error.
I went through and watched all 21 of her races. Ive got to say, i wasnt actually that taken by any of her performances given the opposition. That number of wins is worthless, its like getting a troop of Nass's sand rats and sending them to take on Frankle, means nothing.
It was just that she never seemed to quicken much for pressure, clearly got a very good motor which takes some winding up but no change of pace at all. A grinder, not a sprinter.
Those attributes just dont suit ascot at all, you need a kick, a change of pace. From what the jock said she was empty and ran her race. Simple as. What her race was is subjective, but he emptied her. Her trainer and connections are aussies and would have given every excuse under the sun prior to the race as to why she wouldnt race/win well - they didnt. She was close to 100% (trainer said a couple of times she wouldnt run her even if she was 99%) and they all thought she had it in the bag before the off.
All that said, i did back her for a decent amount and wanted her to win for the sport. I thought she was up against a weak field and given no excuses would still win well.
There is only one star horse in the world right now, thats Frankel, even the most 1 eyed Aussie would say that now (even given all the things against BC). I disagree with alot on here and think Frankel has the talent to beat any horse anywhere given a relatively level playing field. Respect to BC connections for bringing her here but she was found out badly and IMHO is no more that a good G1 horse. Had she had 22 attempts in the UK thing she would have won 10 max.
Longest post ever, sorry for putting you all to sleep!!
'The pommies havent recognised her as the greatest sprinter in history, she will have to go over there and prove and my god she will'
My god she didnt at all regardless of the jock error.
I went through and watched all 21 of her races. Ive got to say, i wasnt actually that taken by any of her performances given the opposition. That number of wins is worthless, its like getting a troop of Nass's sand rats and sending them to take on Frankle, means nothing.
It was just that she never seemed to quicken much for pressure, clearly got a very good motor which takes some winding up but no change of pace at all. A grinder, not a sprinter.
Those attributes just dont suit ascot at all, you need a kick, a change of pace. From what the jock said she was empty and ran her race. Simple as. What her race was is subjective, but he emptied her. Her trainer and connections are aussies and would have given every excuse under the sun prior to the race as to why she wouldnt race/win well - they didnt. She was close to 100% (trainer said a couple of times she wouldnt run her even if she was 99%) and they all thought she had it in the bag before the off.
All that said, i did back her for a decent amount and wanted her to win for the sport. I thought she was up against a weak field and given no excuses would still win well.
There is only one star horse in the world right now, thats Frankel, even the most 1 eyed Aussie would say that now (even given all the things against BC). I disagree with alot on here and think Frankel has the talent to beat any horse anywhere given a relatively level playing field. Respect to BC connections for bringing her here but she was found out badly and IMHO is no more that a good G1 horse. Had she had 22 attempts in the UK thing she would have won 10 max.
Longest post ever, sorry for putting you all to sleep!!
Can we stop calling it a bad ride please, she was given a perfect ride until the last 50 yards, the same ride she has been given in all her races and if she had been pushed out to the line she wouldn't have won by more than 3/4. She has never been off the bridle in her life because she has a physical advantage over other horses which gives her that huge cruising speed over 5f and means nothing will get near her on sharp Aussie tracks on fast ground, today you seen her at her limit on a real 6f track. The ground was absolutely fine, to quote them "shes a swimmer" and it was just good to soft, wasnt as if it was heavy bordering on unraceable. She is a very good 5f sprinter but as rare as she is, you have to say she has been overrated by the Aussie's, just like So you Think.
Frankel ran the first 6f of the Queen Anne in over a second quicker than Black Caviar won today before he had even been asked a question, he then ran the 7th furlong in an incredible 11.04 with little urging which gives you a very clear idea of just how much better he is than Black Caviar. Not only would Frankel have won todays race comfortably, had it been over a furlong longer he would have beaten Black Caviar going on 10 lengths.
The debate is now well and truly over for me, Black Caviar coming to the end of her run, Frankel is crusing and just about to unleash the most explosive turn of foot you have ever seen and then sustain it for 2 furlongs. Incredible horse he is.
Frankel ran the first 6f of the Queen Anne in over a second quicker than Black Caviar won today before he had even been asked a question, he then ran the 7th furlong in an incredible 11.04 with little urging which gives you a very clear idea of just how much better he is than Black Caviar. Not only would Frankel have won todays race comfortably, had it been over a furlong longer he would have beaten Black Caviar going on 10 lengths.
The debate is now well and truly over for me, Black Caviar coming to the end of her run, Frankel is crusing and just about to unleash the most explosive turn of foot you have ever seen and then sustain it for 2 furlongs. Incredible horse he is.
You can not mix up sprinters with middle distance horses. It is fairly well accepted in Australia that the European middle distance horses are superior to theirs. It is also fairly well accepted that the Ausralian sprinters are generally superior to ours, as witnessed by their remarkable success when coming to contest our sprints. Black Caviar is regarded in Australia as superior to any sprinter it has ever had, backed up by her sectional times. Today Black Caviar ran over a stone below he true form (according to Timeform) and the reasons, if not already known will become apparent. Timeform recalled that Dancing Brave, second highest rated horse in the last 30 years (to Frankel), got turned over in America but that was not to be considered a defining race and the same is true of Black Caviar. It is pointless comparing her with Frankel. And I'm sure that if Frankel were to be sent to Australia or America to race (obviously he won't be) and got beaten, or scraped home, every excuse in the world would be readily accepted.
We just need to be fair.
We just need to be fair.
I have to say I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that this forum has a liberal sprinkling of "niche elitests".
"A chser isn't a chaser unless he can win a gold cup"
"Frankel just beating the same horses over a mile is boring"
"Black Caviar didn't win by half a street so she's a dog"
With particular reference to the Diamond Jubilee Stakes, with what arrogance do we claim that 6 furlongs over an undulating Ascot straight on Good-soft is the ultimate test of a sprinter, and that if Black Caviar can't win 8 lengths hard held she's an overrated handicapper? On the one hand Frankel is "boring" because he only wins over 8 furlongs in his back yard against the same horses, and yet here we have an Australian mare who is 21/21 and her connections have the balls to fly her half way around the world to come to Royal Ascot and put that fine record on the line, she goes and wins and is immediately crabbed because she didn't do it with her head in her chest?
I don't know, maybe you are all world class professional athletes who have flown half way around the world, dealt with the dramatic change in conditions, dealt with the jet lag, dealt with the stress of travelling such huge distances. If you are, then fair play to you. If not, then give the mare a break and acknowledge a fantastic racehorse with connections who had the nerve to make for a great spectacle and a real highlight for this year's meeting.
Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus ****ing christ
"A chser isn't a chaser unless he can win a gold cup"
"Frankel just beating the same horses over a mile is boring"
"Black Caviar didn't win by half a street so she's a dog"
With particular reference to the Diamond Jubilee Stakes, with what arrogance do we claim that 6 furlongs over an undulating Ascot straight on Good-soft is the ultimate test of a sprinter, and that if Black Caviar can't win 8 lengths hard held she's an overrated handicapper? On the one hand Frankel is "boring" because he only wins over 8 furlongs in his back yard against the same horses, and yet here we have an Australian mare who is 21/21 and her connections have the balls to fly her half way around the world to come to Royal Ascot and put that fine record on the line, she goes and wins and is immediately crabbed because she didn't do it with her head in her chest?
I don't know, maybe you are all world class professional athletes who have flown half way around the world, dealt with the dramatic change in conditions, dealt with the jet lag, dealt with the stress of travelling such huge distances. If you are, then fair play to you. If not, then give the mare a break and acknowledge a fantastic racehorse with connections who had the nerve to make for a great spectacle and a real highlight for this year's meeting.
Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus ****ing christ
I don't buy into the whole 'you can't compare the two' argument at all.
The whole racing world has compared them for two years. It's unavoidable now that they've both raced in the same country during the same meeting.
The whole racing world has compared them for two years. It's unavoidable now that they've both raced in the same country during the same meeting.
Call me boring but why are we even comparing the two horses ? one is a sprinter one a crack miler who will be stepping up in distance. The whole thing is just tedious imo. Both great horses over different trips. I remember some folk on here having a go at SA comparing Arkle to KS - at least they ran at the same distance ffs.
Because thousands of Aussies had the audacity to proclaim her the best horse in the world, better than Frankel.
thats ****ing why
right on the money Boris
If Frankel raced on the Sand at Southwell I think we could find something to beat him.
I am not going to post my full opinions about Black Caviar, but I would suggest that I stand half way between the two camps, I thought she wasn't as impressive as I had expected against a field that was weakened by her "Aura" and it really saddens me that we didn't get to see her up against Bated Breath over the 6 furlongs. I think the form of those in behind shows that it wasn't a performance that rings out as one of a 132 rated horse.
However we do have interesting circumstances, she was given a bad ride in the closing stages and she had travelled half the way around the world. Horses such as Takeover Target have shown that travel need not impede a horse at Royal Ascot, but that is not to say that it wasn't a reason for her show today, and her jockey gave her a ride that seemed to suggest that he expected her to gallop right through the line (instead of tiring) and she should have won by a bit further.
My main issue is that in the UK and Europe as a whole, we do not have a very classy sprinter to compare her to, and as such we may diminish her effort because she beat horses who have reasonably poor form in G1 company over the trip.
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