Yid Vicious posted an interesting post yesterday (so credit goes to him for the idea of this thread ) on the Spurs XI vs Peterborough thread in regards to how interesting it'd be to see our "B" team/ Under 21's would fair against genuine opposition in the football leagues, similar to how the Spanish teams/ leagues work. Now obviously I know there'd be massive implications to ever get something like this done - and I highly doubt it'd ever happen anyway mainly due to the fact of how would you fit them in as no doubt it'd be at the cost of another club which would cause arguments left, right and centre but trying to look past that, if there was a way teams with a good youth set up could get their youth/ B team into a football league, would you be happy to see it happen and if so, how do you think we'd do against League opposition? Trying to think of a set up, I'd say a few rules would need to be in place such as: *Players registered with either side CANNOT feature for the other team in a League or domestic cup match (but "B" team players can play for the first team in European competition). *The "B" team can NEVER play in the same league as the first team. *Only teams with a genuine youth setup that can make a valid case for their youths to be permitted access into a football league/ conference league are allowed admission providing the League (and teams) allows them so via a vote. (I'm sure others can think of a few guidelines too). So in my opinion, lets say for instance any youth team allowed to enter has to start off in League Two (maybe even Blue Square Prem), a current team of: Miles, Byrne, Hall, Velijkovic, Fryers Fredericks, Ceballos, Luongo, Pritchard Mason Obika Subs: Vigoroux, Barthram, Bostock, Coulibaly, Coulthirst (only 5 subs permitted in Football League). With players like Miles, Stewart, Bentaleb, Gallifuoco, Parrett in reserve. I reckon that'd stand a decent chance a promotion push. Any thoughts? Would you like to see a "B" team in the lower leagues?
I would think they would have to start in the non league like the other teams have to,or as you say, there would be arguments,
Well I can say for sure that they would get out of League 2. Went to see my local team Gillingham v Port Vale (1st against 2nd) and the standard was awful. Long, hopeful balls, poor control, misplaced passing, inability to run more than 20 yards without letting the ball run away from them. Our youngsters would thrash either team. Hadn't realised the Port Vale striker was Lee Hughes. God he must be thick skinned to put up with "Murderer" chants at every game!
Yeah fair point, though I think sticking them in "too low" would be of no benefit as the calibre of players they'd be facing would be lower than what the U-21 league provides I reckon. Yeah I suppose the hoofball isn't what our lads are used to facing but the rough and tumble of the league would be of benefit I reckon, help "man them up". Good to see you reckon from first hand experience though they'd do well.
If I am honest, I don't see too much wrong with the current and revised concept we are seeing taking off at the moment. For the first time for ages, there is now a clear structure through the academy system and then into the under 21 competition along with the NextGen tournament involving european clubs. I know this is only the 2nd season for the NextGen and the 1st season of the under 21's, but the early signs have exceeded expectations. The option of sending young players out on loan still exists and there is still the facility of the youth loan system whereby a player can go out on loan yet still come back and play development squad games for his parent club. The other benefit of this new arrangement is that the familiar saying 'if he isn't in the first team by the time he is 20 then he'll never make it' is not so valid as before there was always a 'gap' between the academy level and the first team for a talented player to possibly fall into and not be seen again. This has now been looked at and sensibly been ddressed in my view. Mind you, the proof of the pudding is still in how many players do come through and make it, so maybe the jury does still remain out on this new plan.
Fully see what you're saying Spurcat and I too think the loan system and recent developments of NextGen and U-21 league has been successful, the likes of Livermore, Carroll, Caulker, Walker, Townsend, Mason, Coulthirst, Pritchard etc have all benefitted from either loans or NextGen exposure and so it's allowed us to recognise that we have some great talents at the club that we may not have noticed before. Though one major advantage I do think having a "B" team over U-21's and/or NextGen would be that our players will be playing week in week out, against opposition we'd generally send them out on loan against with the added bonus that they'll all be playing together "the Spurs way". Although the loans have been great, this is just one player getting the experience with a team that may (or may not) play in a similar style to Spurs and so I think by having our lads together, getting the similar experience to what a loan would bring, I think would be great for their development and get them in the mould of a typical "Spurs" player and therefore are more prepared and ready for any potential first team outings they may receive.
The most important thing is to bridge the gap between the academy and the first team, and I remain optimistic the revamped reserve set up is capable of achieving this and we will see more young players and hopefully more home grown players make it. I have a lot of time for your idea and I can see benefits to be gained from it. Certainly it would be a step up from the training ground friendlies like we saw yesterday where a number of players have clearly outgrown that standard and need to be playing at a higher level. On the point of the "Spurs way", we do endeavour as best as possible to loan players to clubs where we believe they play in a similar style to us. Then, not only do we usually make sure the players are watched by a member of our team when playing on loan, we also insist the borrowing club send as a dvd of teh match for us to monitor the performance and progress of the player.
Don't credit me with the idea I disagree with it on principle as I think it devalues the Football League as competitions if it's got 'B' teams in them, if Spain is anything to go by, it decreases interest and attendences in lower league teams. I also fundamentally don't like the idea of a 'B' team winning the league but other teams going up, you're taking away a trophy from a club that deserved it for a club that probably have bigger resources for their 'B' team than the others can afford for their first team.
And there lies an unsurmountable problem without being unfair to another team. To install one in say the Championship would mean a team that would been promoted from League One having to make way. Entry point further down the leagues defeats the object. Barca B have been going for decades when Spain had less leagues, we have too many to implement such an idea imo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Barcelona_B
Sorry YV but you gave me the idea, you have to take the credit! Yeah I appreciate it could devalue the league, or perhaps more so clubs rather than the league, if that makes any sense at all. Attendances over here aren't too great in the lower leagues, actually to be fair just look at Wigan, a Prem club that rarely fills out. Boro for example too, I don't think I've ever seen the Riverside at full capacity. Down in League 1 and League 2, albeit it's just from the Football League highlights I rarely see many stadiums packed out so I wouldn't say the addition of "B" teams would affect attendances too much. I just think that at current, Spain are producing top class player after top class player and you can exclude any Barca product from that too. The likes of Torres (pre-Chelsea!), Mata, Cazorla, Silva, Xabi Alonso, Sergio Ramos, Llorente have all become either world class or top class players and with the likes of Muniain, Isco, Canales etc all coming through, Spain's future looks amzing. Most of these players have surely come from youth teams that featured in a lower league (can't prove it but I strongly reckon they have) and therefore were technically further ahead in development than what players of similar ages around the world/ Europe were. Also the majority of fans in the country moan about the England team becoming weaker & weaker and the fact the percentage of foreign players coming over rises pretty much each year, this could be a way, if it could ever be implemented, of trying to ensure the future of some of our potential stars. Yeah that's the problem Notso, trying to keep everyone happy. Perhaps if the FA's of the Prem, FL and BSP were ever to discuss something of this nature, maybe they could just add extra spaces in their leagues to ensure the promoted teams do indeed get promoted and the "B" teams can enter etc... It's a tough call and won't be simple by any means but like I said to YV, I just think this could be a way to ensure the potential stars of the future get the right developement and exposure to benefit the English National team further down the line and just general football in England overall.
That's really interesting that, I never knew we received DVD's of the players on loan. Nice to know we're keeping a real good eye on their progress.
I wish this would happen although it would be the end of a lot of lower league clubs as they would lose their league status to reserve/under 21s teams of Premier League sides.
It wouldn't work in England. The teams in League 2 might not be skilful, but they are fit, strong and well drilled. 46 games per season against this kind of opposition is not going to help progress these young players to first team level. If you are Gillingham, say, and you face a team of promising young, skilful, aspiring PL players, what's your best chance of beating them? That's right, kick 'em and play a physical, long ball game where strength and stature outweigh skill. It may be a suitable grounding for individual players for a short period, but they rarely play all the games, they can return to their parent club if injured (and won't be risked in those circumstances) and have the benefit of more experienced players around them to help them. It's very different when the whole team is made up of young players and there isn't the same focus on protecting them and managing their development when there is pressure to get results and compete collectively over the whole season. For example, if the team is involved in a promotion race, there is added pressure to pick players who may be carrying injuries or need a rest. That could have long term detrimental effects for the development individual players, which would defeat the object of setting up the team. The present alternative structure of U-21 leagues is a shorter format and sees players competing against their peers, not hardened pros.
I'm with Spurcat on this one, with regards to whether it's necessary for the Premier League clubs. We appear to have the best prospects that I can remember at the moment and the rejigged system seems a vast improvement already. I hate the idea of a Spurs B in the lower leagues, to be honest. We have a thriving league system which only needs a few tweaks and it would be shame to turn it into even more of an elite spectacle. The Championship's overall attendance is higher than Serie A, making it the 9th highest league in the world in overall attendance in all sports, not just football. Why would we want to sacrifice that, as well as the freshness that adding unfamiliar sides to the top flight provides?
Thats why I can't see integration of Jock teams either, even if the no. of teams was increased to accomodate say 2 extra clubs, it would open argument as to why Championship sides who've finished in the places on merit aren't bumped up.
Agree with all of that. In the UK we have an absolutely fantastic league system. Diversity of club sizes, club locations, movement through the divisions. The small clubs are crucial to football in the UK. I live in the USA now and I genuinely hate the idea of football in the UK being like sport over here - ONLY big teams from big cities. What we (you lot) have in England is something that history and tradition have gifted us (you) over 150 years and more. If Prem B teams put one other football club out of the leagues (and out o business) it would not be worth it. (Plus I don't need another team to be getting up at 4:30am to watch, thanks very much).
