While it's great that we have Jeff Vetere scouring Europe, Africa, and who knows where else for young players, I am always surprised at the talent right on our doorstep that we allow other clubs to snap up. Obviously if Premiership clubs want them we cannot compete but those cases are rare. I think talent-spotting, like charity, should begin at home. The obverse of this is how long we persevere with players like Stavrinou and Tuna who not only prove to be not good enough for Charlton but not good enough for League football at any level. How can they be bright prospects for a League One place (and with young players we should really be looking for those capable of holding down a Championship place) then suddenly they cannot even get a contract at Blue Square level? Surely the alarm bells should be ringing earlier? There are occasional exceptions like Charlie Macdonald who was rejected by Charlton but made a successful career for himself at lower levels, and Mark Ricketts and Harry Pell may follow that example, but the great majority of our young hopes sink without trace.
I echo those sentiments, Eddie. We hear of how there's a good crop of youngsters coming through who are loaned out to Eastbourne and other such clubs, who basically spend their time sat on the bench or being taken off after an hour. They return to us and are then discarded. Obviously there are exceptions such as Shelvey and Jenkinson, but they are extreme. How confident are we that Davisson, Popo, Warren and Cousins will be first team regulars in two years' time.
Excellent thread, Eddie. You make some fine points. This rule about having so many players with three years of training in England before the age of 21 is a nonsense. It does not exactly aid the England cause because we all know that the best young talent from Africa, Scandinavia etc is brought in at a very young age. I fear that young English talent will not fulfil its potential until the training and development is scrutinised and improved in this country. But, as you guys say, some do manage to carve out a half decent career - but they are sadly too few and far between.
In reference to the example of Cody McDonald, if I remember correctly he turned us down to sign for Norwich. We have constantly attempted to make careers our of non-league players and it very rarely happens (Stuart Fleetwood for example), it costs money to sign these players and they very rarely excel at Charlton. Further to this, decent non-league players who are capable of making the step-up are few and far between. Through the years we have developed some class youngsters who have broken into the first team/become regulars in higher leagues (in recent years, Jonjo, Wagstaff, Jenkinson, Elliot, Wright, Solly). We should be proud of our academy not knocking it. I know most don't like the thought of selling our young stars, but if every three years we produce and sell-on players of the calibre of Jonjo and Jenkinson then our academy (at a cost of £1 million a year) funds itself. Liverpool were reportedly sniffing around Jordan Cousins a season or so ago, and I'm sure it will be the same with Gus Poyet. But back to the original point, with our new scouting network, not only will the likes of Welling, Dover and Dartford be scouted, but also their equivalents abroad, and those teams far higher up the leagues. We have to accept that despite the home-grown rulings, foreign footballers now make up the vast majority of teams in the Premier League and soon it will be the same in the lower leagues. Rather than fighting off an influx of foreign players, we should perhaps accept them for the talent they show, rather than somewhat xenophobically rejecting them rejecting them because they're not English (and thus risk them signing for rival clubs).
Xenophobia is a bit harsh. Is wanting an England team made up of decent home-grown players xenophobic? Or for the sake of diversity, should the England team be made up of foreign born players as long as they trained for three years under the age of 21? In the same vein, is it xenophobic to want English jobs for English people? If it is, then I am.
Short and sweet- we have one of the best and well respected academies in the country. Not unusual that lots of our players sink without trace- that's representative from some of the biggest clubs in the country. If you have an academy that produces 20 footballers every year, only a small % go on to play at a similar or higher level.
Ponders, the talent of foreign footballers has no derogatory effect on the England team, if a young English player is good enough he'll be spotted and signed. If they're good enough then it hardly matters how many foreign players are in a squad as they should still be able to play in the first team. Limiting the number of foreign players allowed only weakens the appeal of the Premier League. If 80% of the Premier League was English, only the best 23 players will be chosen for the England team, if 20% were English, it would still be the same 23 players chosen. Filling the football league with English footballers doesn't make those players better, it just risks making the league weaker. The Premier League isn't considered the best league in the world because the likes of Frank Lampard, John Terry and Steven Gerrard play over here, its because some of the best players in the world play over here such as Tevez, Drogba and Torres.
WWOCB, no disrespect, but are you a politician? The numbers game cannot replace the facts of the matter, no matter how eloquently you put it. If a great number of foreign youngsters come to this country - already having been trained to a high level in Europe - then they will have a head start on our own who are technically weaker and far less able in terms of passing, vision and movement. This is a fact, a fact that the likes of Germany are now in the process of eradicating. The emphasis has to be on nurturing English talent and upping our game in terms of training and development before the age of ten. Then there will be a greater pool of English talent to draw on for the national team. The same applies to life in general. This country imports skilled workers from Europe and does nothing to secure the futures of English kids coming out of school with no trades or qualifications. In other words, just carrying on filling the void with exported labour to the detriment of our own. As for the Premiership; our game is so loved because of the passion, the speed of the game, the atmosphere and the history behind our teams. If the top clubs were limited to just three foreign players per starting eleven, we would still have the best game in the world.
I'm not a politician no, not sure whether to take that as a compliment or an insult Your point is a perfectly valid one, European players are trained to a higher standard than English players, and if the problem is that there should be more emphasis on training English youngsters, the number of foreign imports has no bearing on this. Its perfectly possible to train English youngsters to a very good standard whilst still bringing in foreign players. If this were done then perhaps there wouldn't be a NEED to bring in foreign players, but the fact of the matter is that like you say, there ISN'T an emphasis on training them to a decent standard, so managers are left with no option but to sign foreign players who, like you said, come over fully developed, trained well and better than their English equivalents. Its a simple formula really: Foreign footballers = better footballers = better football being played = stronger, more attractive leagues = more supporters wishing to view the attractive footballer = more money being spent by fans = a stronger footballing economy. I somewhat also agree with your last point about the attractiveness of the league making it the strongest, but the footballer is more attractive because of the players playing the football (whether they be English, Scottish, Irish, Australian, Nigerian, Phillipino or Zimbabwean) not just the English.
Non-league talents that can prosper in the Football League are extremely rare. A player who hasn't really performed at any level above L2 is not the greatest example, but fair enough, there are some examples out there. Of course scouts should be spotting talented players like this. The academy has produced many many players who have made it into our first team. Seven such recent academy graduates have been named already in this thread. Not all academy graduates will make the breakthrough, that's the same for all clubs. If young English players are receiving worse training than young German players, that is a problem the FA should be addressing. The clubs are not entirely without responsibility, but the national team and the ability of the players who will progress to the national team are the preserve of the FA. Good players will play for good teams. Mediocre players will play for mediocre teams. If good teams are forced to sign mediocre players, the teams will become mediocre.
What about Danny ****tu, what about Michael Turner, what about Scott McGleish, Danny Green, not to mention Bowyer, Parker, Defoe, LloydSamuel, Grant Basey,Darren Randolph, n Danny Haynes, George Boyd, P Darren Randolph Scott Parker Paul Konchesky Michael Turner Jonjo Shelvey Jamal Campbell Rice Lee Bowyer Josh Wright Harry Arter Jason Brown Paul Smith Simon Ford Charlie Macdonald Osei Sankofa Kevin Lisbie Scott McGleish Barry Fuller Rashid Yussuf Jon Fortune Myles Weston Grant Basey Rob Elliott Chris Solly Scott Wagstaff Lloyd Sam Tamer Tuna Alex Stavrinou Yado Mambo Harry Pell James Walker Kemal Izzet George Boyd Edit: now at Bristol City
I'm not really sure what the meaning of the big list of players is? But it would appear to show that we produce a low percentage of very good players, a fair few average players and quite a lot of mediocre players. Plus many players who don't excel until they leave - which is worrying and frustrating. WWOCB. It was neither a compliment or an insult, just a comparison with politicians who use numbers and formulas to hide the very essence of a problem. I have no issue with foreign players who are brought in for transfer fees and are at the very top of their game. That has, and always will be, part of the game. But I do have a problem with teams that export foreign youngsters when our own could be trained better at an earlier stage and thus be the cream of the crop for England. The Germans have worked this one out and put emphasis on top-class coaching for kids from the age of seven upwards. They are now reaping the rewards of such a scheme and will be the realistic opposition to Spain at the Euro Champs and World Cups in the foreseeable future. You could argue that many of these kids are from Turkish, Slavic or Polish origin, which is true, and fine, they are German nationals. With this scheme, the German league is not exactly suffering on a technical or economical level. But our clubs bring in well honed teenagers who go on to play for their own countries but have reaped the rewards of playing in the English leagues. It is all about filling cracks and not bothering with our own youth. It is the same throughout the country and its industries. Maybe I care so much because I am an Englishman?
The list shows how many players we've produced that have played championship and up. There are more, the defoes of the world etc. As for players leaving too early- hindsight is a beautiful thing. Released most of those when in the prem and trying to sign internationals.
Yes, bringing in foreign players instead of training our own up to their true potential. Lazy quick-fixes, which do nothing in the long term.
Cheers IA I'm flattered Ponders, me (and IA too I would say) being Irish has no bearing on how I view the situation really, the only difference being that I support the Irish National Team rather than the English (and thus perhaps don't share the same 'pride of the English'). But pride can at times stray into the realms of bigotry and xenophobia (the recent French youth-development scandal springs to mind), and I feel that regardless of skin colour or nationality, the signing of a player should depend solely on their footballing ability rather than their nationality, afterall, I'd rather see Lionel Messi play upfront for us rather than Lewis Perkins, and I'm sure most would. But I do fully appreciate and understand the joy of seeing homegrown talent emerge (those who have read my posts regarding the Rob Elliot saga will know that). Your comparison between the German youth policy and the English is a very good one, and as I said before, perhaps if the FA put a heavier emphasis on improving the development and training of youngsters, there wouldn't be a need for a heavy influx of foreign talent.
Were they all foreign? Young, murphy, bent, holland etc etc. Also thought we did a decent job bringing players through during our top flight stay- Parker, konch, Sam..
You make some good points, WWOCB, but why does national pride and the want for own to excel first lead to the xenophobia and bigotry trap? That, in my opinon, is what is wrong with our society; so many being afraid to speak out against the influx of foreign workers - whether they are footballers, fruit-pickers or factory workers. We have our own resources, our own infra-structure and talent but fail to utilise them. It is a problem which is never stemmed because people fear they will be labelled as racist speaking out. I do not fear such labels. I am fair minded, but realistic. I want the best for our people whether they are black, white or whatever. As for Messi, he is one of very few who were blessed with a heavenly skill. But if Perkins was as good as Messi, I would go for Perkins every time for the simple reason that he is English. Nowt wrong with that.
