Article: Frankel v Shergar | Horse Racing

Is FRANKEL as good as SHERGAR or better? Just watched these races were SHERGAR decimated the fields in the English and Irish Derby your thoughts?

[video=youtube;8Uf0B02SXNs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uf0B02SXNs&feature=related[/video]

[video=youtube;MKntMwlxAmc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKntMwlxAmc[/video]

 

Suppose it comes down to the quality of the horses Shergar beat which was banded about on the old 606 site.
Canford Cliffs is clearly a top class horse in his own right and Frankel has beaten him convincingly. OK there was an 8lbs allowance and he seemed to hang again but I dont think it would have made a difference!

Possibly could we have seen the greatest ever today?

 

Alot of rubbish gets written on these boards and on 606 previously about the ability of Shergar, so it was nice to hear Henry Cecil think of him over any other when talking about past greats. Shergar was a freak, he had so much speed, they crawled in his derby, yet when the button was pressed he opened up a 15 lengh advantage, and then was eased for most of the final furlong to still score by 10 lengths, from a horse in 2nd in Glint Of Gold who went on to win 6 G1s.

I've alway been of the opinion Shergar's optimum distance was 10f, even though he never ran in a G1 over that trip, but if you watch his runs in the Chester Vase and Sandowns Classic trial, you will see exactly what I mean, his ability to quicken and put daylight between himself and his opponents was frightening. I also believe he would have won that years 2000 Guineas had SMS realised just how good he was earlier, but because he wasn't that good a 2yo they didn't realise what a beast he was until after the romp in the Derby trial, Had he shown more ability before the Guineas I believe he would have lined up and won.

He was stupidly placed in the St Leger after romping away with the Derby, Irish Derby and King George, which realy ruined this great horses reputation, he didn't stay the Leger trip, and many people now hold it against him when talking about past greats, before the Leger the majority of racing experts rated him as head and shoulders above anything they have ever seen, had he gone to the Arc I have no doubt in my mind he would have
won that race and probably in a record distance.

Frankel is much the same he has the ability to open up clear daylight in a matter of strides, he was a far better 2yo than Shergar, and so far he hasn't yet been beaten, though it has to be said he has not been taken out of his comfort zone, had Shergar remained at 10-12f he wouldn't have been beaten as a 3yo.

At the moment I wouldn't rate Frankel above Shergar, but what I will say is he is tied for 2nd with Arazi, on the most talented horses I've ever seen

 

I thought you'd be pleased with SHC's quote, Shergar!

I would put Frankel at least on a par with Shergar. Perhaps it is easier to compare him with fellow-milers and he is certainly the best I have seen since Brigadier Gerard, and that was 40 years ago.

I hope Hannon takes him on again with CC at Ascot as I cannot see anything else giving the horse a race. While I do not think the course made a huge difference today if you factor that in with the fact that CC hanged we could still have another good race on our hands.

 

Fulkes.....It's nice to know that the 2 most respected trainers, see Shergar as the benchmark for being the best they have seen.

As good as Horses like Dancing Brave, Nashwan, Rock Of Gibralter and Sea The Stars where, they never had that explosive burst that Shergar had. Sea The Stars won everything, but alot of it was workman like, he was consistantly a few pounds superior than the rest, he wasn't freakishly better than the rest.

When you look at the horses Frankel has beat, and with ease, it's frightening.

Nathaniel King George winner
Treasure Beach Classic winner
Dream Ahead July Cup winner
Roderic O'conor Classic winner
Excelebration Classic winner

And now he has just decimated the best horse Hannon and Hughes have ever trained/rode, it is just frightening how good Frankel has proved to be.

Yes it is probably fairer to compare him to Brigadier Gerard who was the benchmark as far as milers where concerned, I say was because I think Frankel may well be better. Brigadier Gerard won his races much like STS, consistently a few pounds better, but he wasn't realy explosive like Frankel.

CC will never get anywhere near Frankel if they meet again, he is nowhere near the ability required to give Frankel a good race, we seen that today

 

Just properly caught up watching the interviews and fallout from the race.

The main point Sir Henry was making when using Shergar as a benchmark though was to say Frankel is the best horse he's ever seen...as in he's better than anything else including Shergar, which pretty much puts the whole thing to bed for me!
Yes he's better than Shergar!

I don't see how you can applaud him for saying Shergar was that good but then pick holes and doubt him when he says Frankel is better?

Canford Cliffs is a top class horse - best miler over the past two seasons bar none...until today! For me he won't beat Frankel but no horse will over a mile...I'd back him in the Nunthorpe to be honest!
Could he get closer? Possibly but then again he could get beaten 10 lengths! I'm just glad to hear, despite some of the excuses, that they're prepared to take him on again!
I think some need to start looking at Frankel possibly becoming the best we've seen instead of making Canford Cliffs out to be a Class 4 Donkey!

Quote of the season so far by a long long way for me:
"So will Frankel stay in training next season?" to which Khalid Abdullah's typically understated reply was "If Henry wants him!"
Brilliant!

 

I haven't seen any of the Interviews, I watched the mile handicap at Redcar instead, do you know where I can find these interviews Flyingbolt?

When Frankel wins by 10 lengths eased up then he can be compared to Shergar. Compare how Frankel finished his Guineas, to how Shergar finished in his Derby. Frankel did not have enough in hand to ease up for most of the final furlong

 

There is no doubt that Frankel was brilliant today. However, we have to remember that Zoffany almost collared him over 8f and would have won over 8f 20yds. To me that puts just a tinge of doubt over his vulnerability over a truly run 8f race. Today, Queally rode the perfect race to beat Canford Cliffs, or any other top miler. The way the race was run today was more like a 6 or 7f race and, with Frankel's ability to set and maintain a blistering pace over 6-7f, Canford Cliffs had no answer. In fact in his attempt to hang on to Frankel he hung badly left, as he has done before when out of his comfort zone. I'm not suggesting Canford Cliffs could ever beat Frankel but I believe a more even, faster, pace could have played more into his hands.

On a (fairly reliable) line through Rio de la Plata, Canford Cliffs ran 3l below his best form, in my opinion due to the way the race was run. Consider that together with the weight for age allowance and, maybe, just maybe, what we witnessed today could be a little misleading. Against this we all saw how easily Frankel did it. The question remains though can he maintain that speed for 8f? If he can then he most certainly is a monster. But he still has to show he can actually do it as opposed to giving the impression he could.

We know only too well the problems of comparing horses from different eras, even when they raced over the same distances, but I think we are trying to compare chalk and cheese here.

I doubt Frankel would have beaten Shergar over 12f and I doubt Shergar would have seen which way Frankel went over 8f or less. So where does that leave us?

I find it difficult in comparing Frankel to Brigadier Gerrard and Dubai Millennium let alone Shergar, or Nijinski, Sea Bird, Ribot etc.

So I will have to gracefully withdraw from this debate, interesting though it is.

 

Ron are you not happy just to blame the jockey for the below par showing at Ascot, as I've maintained since Ascot had any other horse been ridden in that manner in that race at Ascot they would have lost, it's only that Frankel is that good that he could still win

 

Unless they are on C4 Catchup or whatever they called it then no idea - unless someone posts them on the usual sights. The reports of them & quotes are on the usual sites though I would think - RP; Sporting Life.
BBC has an audio of SHC on about Shergar.

Shergar - I would say that Frankel has beaten some better horses this season than Shergar did in the Derby.
Canford Cliffs I would certainly say is a better miler than any of the horses Shergar beat in his Derby but opinions could differ. I would say side by side Frankel's Guineas win was at the very least as good as Shergars Epsom romp.

Ron - I think you can completely ignore Ascot. You've basically seen a more mature performance from Frankel who's growing up & also a more confident ride from Tom Queally. The St James they got it wrong going at the turn and got away with it. Now the after burners aren't on until two from home. Had they done that in the St James then Zoffany wouldn't have got close.
It was the same with Canford Cliffs last season when he hung in the Greenham and was too keen in the Guineas. After they got to the bottom of him in the Irish Guineas he was a different - and unbeatable horse until today.

 

Crazy to even mention Frankel being as good as Shergar at this stage of his career.Ill reserve judgment on Frankel when his career has ended.

 

Well Frankel has beaten some better horses, Canford Cliffs is a pretty good miler, Id have him just infront of Goldikova though behind Zarkava, Sea The Stars, Rock Of Gibralter and Makfi in recent seasons. Either way Frankels performance today would have still beaten any of those at a mile.

A 6 time G1 winner was 2nd in Shergar's derby, no matter what people say about that Derby, bad horses don't win 6 G1s. Ian Balding also describes Glint Of Gold as the best horse he has ever trained with the exception of Mill Reef.

Frankel in the Guineas pulled 15 lengths clear, and it diminished down to 6 whilst Frankel was tired and being pushed along by Queally, he crossed the line a tired horse, though he put up an amazing performance. Shergar burst clear in the Derby pulling 15 lengths clear, Walter Swinburn realised the race was won at the furlong pole and eased Shergar down to an exercise canter, and he crossed the line full of running with plenty left in the tank. Had Swinburn had his foot on the gas all the way to the line it would have been 20+ lengths.

So no Frankels Guineas is nowhere near as good as Shergar's Derby, the 1981 Derby is the greatest performance by a horse ever, no arguments

 

I certainly wouldn't knock Shergar's performances but I cannot use the Derby as any sort of indication of how good he was. I predicted before the race that he would win by a record margin because he was against a load of no hopers; any decent horse would have done the same. In my opinion he needs to be judged on his more impressive performances (eg King George).

 

KS,Glint of gold won what today would be described as Group 3 fields.And Mill Reef was in a different galaxy so lets not go down that road.

But anyway,im generally not one to get carried away by hype.IMO Frankel still has a way to go before i start proclaiming him an all-time great.He may turn out to be an all-time great miler,but he isnt yet.And until he starts racing and winning over varying distances i certainly wont be calling him an all-time great horse.

 

Ron.....the reason you predicted that is because he won his trial races by 10 and 12 lengths hard held. Like I've just highlighted the 2nd was a 6 time G1 winner, and Ian Balding would not be happy if you described Glint of Gold as a no hoper.

Shergar for me was a little jaded in the KG he was still an easy winner but it was his 3rd 1m4 G1 in 6 weeks, so he wasn't quite at his peak for that, though still good enough to win

 

I'm afraid I can't just put it down to a poor ride. What if something else had gone from there, or even earlier. The fact is Zoffany would have beaten him in a few more strides. If he was that superior to Zoffany he should have won easing up having gone so clear. If he was to be held up in a truly run race and win impressively in a fast time I would be convinced, but he basically had a 6-7f race today so he didn't need to stay 8f and he could obviously maintain a faster gallop over 6-7f than anything else. In a race run like that there is no horse on this planet that could beat him.

Sorry, I was very impressed by the way he won today but, on reflection, it did not prove he is one of the all time greats. Hopefully he will prove it.

 

DBF.....Ian Balding describes Glint of Gold as the 2nd best horse he ever trained, why is that hard to understand, only Mill Reef was superior. The former champion trainer trained many other classy horses throughout his long training career the likes of Lochsong, Mrs Penny, Diamond Shoal, Gold and Ivory, Selkirk, Forest Flower, Dashing Blade, Robellino, Silver Fling, King Of Clubs, Lochangel,Top Cees, Crystal Spirit, and Tagula. Do I need to go on?

 

Lochsong and Lochnagel were top sprinters. Can't say the rest set the world alight. Glint of Gold was an out and out stayer with no acceleration whatsoever, hence so many seconds, if I recall correctly. If the trainer reckons only Shergar was better then it just demonstrates that he hasn't had that many good horses, unless he's looking through rose tinted glasses at GOG. He was a very genuine horse, I'll give him that. But honestly just listen to the commentary. How many of those horses in the Derby were above average at best?

I'm sure you appreciate that I'm not being critical of Shergar. He could do no more than beat them easily; I just can't use that particular race as any sort of yardstick. There are other horses who slaughtered supposedly top class opposition.

 

I see you're still here Shergar but I must go to bed now. Good night. Good luck with the ggs tomorrow.

 

DBF - I wouldn't say its crazy to mention Frankel being as good as Shergar at this stage of his career? Its almost August in his 3yo campaign. At this point Shergar had won the English & Irish Derbies and the King George; Frankel has the Guineas; St James Palace & Sussex Stakes?

Shergar - Please get past the hero worship! Shergar beat a bunch of no-hopers in his Derby.
Secondly you comparing a mile race where a horse ran from stalls to post as opposed to being held up before the turn for home! Not even close to being the best performance ever!