Are you shocked?

What a cracking result for the Tigers – we must not let it go to our heads, but, hey, enjoy!

But life goes on and today’s horrendous murder of two police officers in Manchester focus’s the mind. We take it for granted that the armed forces face death on a daily basis; the ‘Green on Blue’ is a very chewy subject that has now become a political expedient for extraction from the Afghanistan theatre of operations (my opinion), but it has previously struggled to gain the public gaze that Manchester has. I would ask for forbearance, as these boards are very broad in their representation, just as they are, usually, well expressed on serious matters. Can I ask or provoke comment on these questions:

1. Is Afghanistan worth the lives of our (and other) service personnel?
2. Our police force is reluctant to be armed (as America, etc.); are they right?
3. Did you realise the frequency of armed attacks in this country; especially grenade attacks (I am not cossetted in life, but this shocked me)?
4. Would the re-introduction of the death penalty make a difference to the frequency of incidents or, just as important, the ability of the Police to channel the hard core into a more defined and manageable menace? (Or even just a feeling that ‘an eye for an eye’ has a certain release)

Football is a huge part of this country and its people are diverse in their demographic profile – questions need and should be asked and it should not be left to Newsnight. We football lovers have a voice and an ability to cross social and media constraints, NOT606 is a fine forum for the occasional foray into these off-thread areas and although we should not abuse that, neither should we neglect it either.

General comment and a fixed period poll on questions 2 & 4 might be useful, should anyone have the board nous to set it up.

The police cannot win this battle, it has to come from you and I, just like Northern Ireland, et al; let’s start something tangible and see where it goes, as this is our corner!

 

I can see why we're in Afghanistan. Without us they won't be able to prevent the Taliban from taking over again, afterall they're already infilatrating their police and military personell, who were trying to train into an effective force.

The last few deaths have come from turncoats who we thought we could trust.

We should deffo pull out so we don't lose anymore men & women, but our efforts there will all be in vain.

 

I lost a very good friend in Afghan and pulling out now would make me feel like we lost him for nothing because the job hasn't been complete.

The attacks on the police today are so shocking it's untrue and them poor woman police where serving the community n this coward does that so sad

 

These incidents are, thankfully, very rare but the fact is that certain elements of society in this country are becoming more and more violent. They are lawless.

In this part of the world we are a number of years behind in relation to gun crime so fully arming every copper , IMO, isn 't necessary.

In parts of Manchester, London and West Yorks the OB should be routinely armed.

It will happen sooner or later that every copper carries a fire arm but as it stands the vast majority don't even carry a tazer.

 

I think Police should be armed. Standard issue firearms, tazers, and tranquilliser dart guns. There's a war on the streets, they need something to intimidate, and protect.

I also would love the death penalty - too many pieces of **** in prison, kept by the state when they'd be better dead. Only when evidence is sufficient to prove 'beyond all doubt' they are guilty.

 

Firstly; not too shocked at tonight's result, we have a new attitutude, mentality and ability, beating Bolton and Millwall so convincingly points towards a special era.

Next Afganistan; I've got cousins and friends who fought in both Iraq wars and I think I understand how the general sqaddy see life working for Queen and country, yes it's a ****ty, cowardly way of fighting but most of my mates don't want to pull out until the jobs done for the memory of their lost mates.

Next, giving coppers guns? Are you serious half of coppers are half wits and not fit to be given a gun, Christ they can kill people with their bare hands live on the news and get away with it! Yes it's sad about those two poor WPC's but just like the guys and girls in the middle east they are also taking the queens pound and should accept the work that comes their way.

Ps: I put a post on here a few years ago, I was at Hillsborough, I saw what went on with the police and fans that day and nothing I have seen or experienced since will every convince me that we have a high quality trustable police force.

 

I know that a tazer , as is pepper spray , are classed as firearms before any smart arse points it out. I meant a big **** off gun that shoots bullets and kills people.

 

Is Afghanistan worth the lives of our personnel?

Darwinism, my friend. Anybody willing to be shot at by the natives of a country you are wrongfully invading, under the pretence you are protecting your own (which is, what? 3,000, maybe 4,000 miles away?), is not somebody who deserves respect. If the soldiers who were dying actually knew why they were there, my opinion would be different. If they were going to Afghanistan out of goodwill, to restore peace and democracy to a troubled nation, my opinion would be different. But you only have to look at any messageboard or Facebook page connected with the armed forces to see that that's not the case. Some of them are people I would consider a public danger if they lived in my town. Said pages are littered with comments about shooting 'brown bastards', 'pakis' and 'ragheads', and these same posters are entrusted with weaponry by the British government. They are, by-and-large, illiterate oafs whose role in society would otherwise be non-existent or at best menial.

 

I can't see this thread lasting long.

 

As much as it would upset some, we have no ****ing business in afghanistan, it's all bullshit and we should cut our losses. Sorry to those who have lost close ones and feel it would be for nothing if we pulled out but think of the families that haven't lost anyone yet... it's not fair on them. We're not defending our country or democracy. We have invaded their country and told them to obey us and do as they are told. Doesn't that sound a little familiar? think roughly 70 odd years ago...
as for british police with weapons... haven't the recent events in america shown anything to you??? the fact that our police manage to do their jobs without the need of a gun is something that I am greatly proud of. Yes there are some circumstances like today but these are very rare, in comparison to america.
Guns on police would force criminals to up their game and get armed themselves... at the moment it remains limited.
If you think it's getting bad then just be prepared for a lot worse if we arm the police.

 

Come on, you're a man of the people, it's your decision!

IMO, Afghan isn't worth the amount of lives that have been lost, it's an unwinable war that will never be truly over and the sooner we pull out the better.

 

Sorry Erik but you are so wrong.

I joined the Army at in June 1972 as a Junior Soldier. I spent two years until I was 17 (yes I was 15 when I joined) being educated, taught military skills and learning a trade. I did not join a fighting unit, I took further training and worked in a support role, as do the vast majority of men. I volunteered to go to Northern Ireland, still in a support role but with lets say certian differences to it.

BEFORE I was deployed, I undertook as does every single person sent out on active duties a familurisation course. Designed to introduce the reasons for the deployment, the history of the conflict , the culture, language, dress and who we are there to protect and who we are the to watch out for. The only personnel who do not do this are the rapid mobilsation forces. I went into a conflict with a greater understanding of the politics and with a real desire to be a part of stopping innocent lives being lost.
Whilst I was in the Province the whole situation changed for me. My role was changed, from being a defender, (we only fired back if fired on and had strict rules of engagement) into a more attack minded role, something that I always knew that I may have to do but that would change me at 19 into a different person. My story is just the same as countless others who serve the country. We are prepared to put ourselves in danger, for the Queens shilling, but we are never thugs and killers we (the British Army) are the best trained and competant land forces in the world. There will be service personnel who never hear a shot fired for weeks on end. They work with the local communities to rebuild schools, hospitals and civic structure. In doing so they have to be able to conduct this in a safe enviroment. The deaths make the headlines but death never tells the full story. If we pull out half done we lose the war, simple as that.

 

I think we should ban motorcycles, the needless deaths on our roads have a great impact on families. If how we die is a measure of how we lived, Why not close the A15?

Where do you go for your holidays? Is there anywhere in the world not ravaged at some point by war? Is there anywhere that an army of some sort has not had to defend? Afganistan today, who knows where we will be called to fight tomorrrow.

Being armed does not ever stop you getting killed. Security guards in Europe have guns, do we really want that? The problem is that in some elements of our social fabric having a gun or knife is seen as vital. Arm the Police and that may feed into that view.

 

As harsh as it may seem given the reasonable nature of the replies, politics and religion on here has usually ended up in just personal abuse that has leeched into other threads.

I wouldn't dispute it being an interesting subject, but there are other boards to discuss the topics on.