Another poor Derby

[kentuckyfriedbeefcake]

Pour Moi may have looked like a world-beater on Saturday, but Barzalona got lucky. You can only come from last to first at Epsom if the other nags aren't up to much. Treasure Beach is nothing special (he was running in handicaps last year) and the others finished in a bit of a heap. The best horse in the race was probably Recital, but he'll never win anything if he continues to carry his head to one side.

I'm not a big fan of Epsom and I don't understand why they continue to run the 'world's greatest race' on the side of a hill. They should move it to either Ascot or York.

 

[Ron]

I understand they run it there KFB because it is the ultimate test of a horse's conformation. The horse needs to be well balanced to act on the course. Maybe good winners of the Epsom Derby have proved they have very good conformation and therefore become desirable at stud.

 

[kentuckyfriedbeefcake]

Most of the really big races in the world are run on flat tracks.

 

[NassauBoard]

So the best horse in the race was one who got slaughtered. Ok then.

Why do trainers think the Derby is the pinnacle for flat racing KFBC? Its because horses such as Galileo go on and make massive impact at stud, its the pinnacle because its the ultimate test for a thoroughbred racehorse.

 

[kentuckyfriedbeefcake]

I'm entitled to my opinion NB and please don't talk to me as if I'm some kind of idiot, which I assure you, I'm not. If you're not able to have a civilized discussion, then please ignore my threads.

PS Before you start accusing me of sour grapes, I backed Pour Moi.

 

[NassauBoard]

I wasn't talking to you as if you are some kind of idiot, I apologise if it seems that way. I am bemused that someone can say its another poor derby but state that Recital the well beaten sixth home was the best horse in the race, ok he hung again but that was no surprise as he did the very same in the Derrinstown. He was the fourth home of the Coolmore runners yet you put him down as the best horse in a 'another poor Derby'.


To me its an insult to those who finished in the places to suggest that it wasn't a very good race until we get to see some of the form work out, to me it seems a very fair Derby in which the form seems to read strongly in a lookback at their pre-Derby form.

The Guineas form is shown in the race with Native Khan running a fair race in fifth, we have the reversal of the Derrinstown form with Memphis Tenessee beating Recital home and we have the winner of the Dante being beaten by the horse Fabre claimed pre race was his best chance of winning the Derby. I would say on the form we have seen we can't class the race as weak, but if the form doesn't work out then we may have to revise views.

To me the best horse won the race, he did so by coming from last to first which isn't a great Derby tactic (even though both New Approach and Workforce were held up in their Derby wins), and he put away a field of classy sorts who won the regular Derby trials.

To put in a bit more research I would also suggest that hold up horses do win Derby's, as you can add Authorized, Sir Percy and High Chap all won their Derby's from hold up positions. Yet none were impressive as Pour Moi in his ultra late run to the front. I would suggest that in a truer run race both him and Carlton House would have finished further forward of the pack but both had issues of coming further wide and from further back than they would have liked (due to fading no hopers and also the fact the pack didn't go with Memphis Tenessee when he kicked).

As for Treasure Beach, he was given an enterprising ride and he was put in the right place at the right time and finished as close as he did because of this and the fact he got first run on the likes of Native Khan and Recital etc

 

[OddDog]

I think the Derby often has a tendency to disappoint as a race because so often well-fancied runners don't perform - this year's prime examples being Seville and Ocean War. I think there are 2 primary reasons for this - 1) the unique undulations of the track tend to make life very difficult for relatively inexperienced colts and 2) the horses are not fully developed in early June and often 2YO form does not carry over to 3YOs.

I am personally no great fan of Epsom but I guess tradition demands that the Derby stay there. I would like to see it moved to later in the season though such that we get the best horses running in it and less "dross". Early September would be as good a time as any - gives the winner a month off to prepare for the Arc.

 

[QuarterMoonII]

OddDog, I think that the reason that three-year-olds have not developed in time for the Derby in the modern era is down to modern breeding practises. Several of the fancied contenders for the Derby every year are horses that hardly ran a race as a two-year-old (or did not run at all) because they mature slowly.

If it were not for the Oaks and the Derby, I would never have a bet at Epsom as the requirements of the course’s unique topography tend to favour smaller well-actioned horses with good conformation. If the fastest horse in the Derby is a large long-striding animal it has no chance unless the opposition are poor or similarly handicapped by their physique.

Epsom still survives as a racecourse rather than being levelled off and built over with expensive Surrey housing because of history. We residents of the old Western World like our heritage. If it were the United States, money would talk and it would be flat.

Every year the Derby makes one or two horses and ruins most of the remainder.

After the weekend’s action at Epsom and Chantilly, I fully expect that Seville and Casamento are towards the head of the betting for the St Leger. At least Casamento’s supporters got a run for their money on Sunday – yes, that is sour grapes having done my money on Seville!

 

[Flyingbolt]

No real fan of Epsom or the two day meeting itself - much prefer Royal Ascot and York!
For me its a stopping point before the Royal meeting!
Over the jumps I wouldn't want the Cheltenham races moved to Kempton because we didn't want to see Champions run up the side of a hill so why move the Derby from an undulating course? Its simply a different test for horses!

Seville was disappointing! If he didn't handle the track then the Irish Derby is next on the list and see how he goes there. If the step up may suit then the St Ledger could be where he ultimately ends up! As he's in my TenToFollow then that could be hope above expectation though....

...and yeah - I backed him on the day too!!!

 

[OddDog]

QM yeah, I think there have always been early and late developers (you'd have to say Frankel is an early developer - be frightening to think he may have a ton of improvement in him) but we seem to be getting more and more of the latter, even to the extremes of a horse like Harbinger. I think the whole pattern system needs a review in light of this and I would also like to see more incentive for owners to keep horses in training for longer. Maybe controversial, but what about putting a cap on stallion fees?

 

[mickmanmerry]

In fairness to Kentucky he is probably right in regards to Recital being the best horse in the race. He is such a difficult horse to ride and without Fallon guiding it home he probably lost his chance.

 

[derbyjester]

Would CH not have won the Derby had he not had a shoe come off in the last furlong, but more importantly, get pushed so wide and blocked when he was being asked for more round TC? RM wanted to get him into stride, about half a furlong earlier, but couldnt. Then a shoe comes off and you can see him go one pace just inside the furlong pole when he was surely going to catch TB and therefore, Pour Moi wouldnt have been able to make up the distance. I did back CH to be honest, but this all seems like perfect excuses for why the best horse in the race didnt win to me, is it not? I will defiantely be backing CH again..................and the whole reason why the derby is the greatest flat race in the world is because of its english history, culture and tradition, the fact that it was first run in 1780 over the same place. If you moved it, it would no longer be the greatest flat race in the world!

 

[Ron]

My initial reaction was that it could be a good idea Oddy. But then I thought "I need more time to think about the implications". Horses aren't really developed until 5 and some not by then. I think some horses start racing too early.

Here is an extract I took from "Training a racehorse".

"Never push a horse younger than 32 months into speed training. Before this age the knees have not fully closed up, so you can do severe damage to a horse if you push hard before the Thoroughbred's body is matured and ready."

I have seen other articles disagreeing with this saying that the knees have fully fused by the age of 2 years.

Maybe some owners/trainers aren't too fussed about the long term welfare of their horses and, having raced at two and three, with severe strain on under-developed joints at 2 years, a further season would be too much.

I haven't checked but maybe racehorses that have a successful NH career have not been over-raced as youngsters.

If you look at Harbinger, who improved by leaps and bounds as a 4yo, I think you will find he did not race as a 2yo.

 

[QuarterMoonII]

OddDog, there is no way that it would be possible to regulate the breeding industry. If the British brought in some sort of “salary cap”, the breeders would simply move to France or Ireland. There is no realistic prospect of bringing in any International system because the money these days is in the USA and Japan.

Going slightly off topic to mention Frankel, the gallops reports in the Racing Post on Sunday suggest that Henry Cecil thinks he has improved since Newmarket and he is hammering his work companions. Bring on Royal Ascot next week!

derbyjester, there was no evidence in the replays I have seen that Carlton House shedding a plate in the last furlong made any impact on the result. He lost the front offside shoe, which was not the leg of his pre-race fetlock injury. I am sure that the race form comments will say something along the lines of “stayed on at same pace”, which could be a euphemism for “did not stay”. We will find out when he next lines up over twelve furlongs (Irish Derby, perhaps).