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alternative debate. Why england fail - it's not form its fashion

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by moreinjuredthanowen, Oct 14, 2011.

  1. moreinjuredthanowen

    moreinjuredthanowen Mr Brightside

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    Introduction

    It's my view that England has always selected players not based on performance but rather on fashion. What I mean by this is that our national side will pick players not on a long history of form and abilty but on the "next big thing"

    Before I continue I'll state two things, Michael Owen for Liverpool in 1998 was just such a player. Theo Walcott was similar. Second I bear no ill to the player who will become subject of this article, do not interpret me picking out Danny Wellbeck just beacuse he is a Utd player. You'd be dead wrog and wasting your time.

    What's the point


    I'll now refer you to Sky Sports poll "Who should start up front in England's opening Euro 2012 group game?" http://www.skysports.com/poll/results/0,19911,12782_307707_307707,00.html

    Obviously we know the reasoning behind this poll and thats not the subject of this article.

    Todays results show:

    Danny Wellbeck 35%
    Darren Bent 19%
    Andy Carroll 14%
    Jermain Defoe 9%
    Other 9%
    Gab Agbonlahor 6%
    Peter crouch 4%
    Zamora 3%

    The central tenent of my arguement is that despite Welbecks loan's and a good start to the season I simply cannot see why 35% of the voters want him to start for england i nthe first game of a vital tournament.

    Nearly twice the votes counted for him over darren bent, the rather obvious choice in the squad and amazingly Defoe, a proven international at 9% is 4 times and Crouch, who has a fabulous england record gets only 4%. Its amazing to me. I'm not even going to point to Carroll as there are guys with better credentials.

    Yes I see the flaw

    Yes i can see that utd fans could have been drawn to this and voted on partizan lines. I can see that but lets say you drop the result by a massive 10% wellbeck would still be out ahead.

    My Question

    Do you think that england have a long history through many managers of picking the fashionable new player rather than going with the guys they should know and trust to do the job?

    I'm not saying welbeck will be the next walcott nor that he won't have the impact of owen, merely that this jumping the queue occurs at every tournament and we all see how it works out.
     
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  2. Lucaaas

    Lucaaas Well-Known Member

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    Danny Welbeck is the form player, I'd probably pick him too, If I was English.
     
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  3. Foredeckdave

    Foredeckdave Music Thread Manager

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    One of the major criticisms of Copello's reign as England manager is that he has never been able to establish a true England style of play. We appear to pick a side based purely upon reputation and then expect the players to gel even though they are attempting to play a style that is different from that played by their clubs.

    Without any form of blueprint, we are only left with a pool of players who are supported my media pressure.
     
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  4. Foredeckdave

    Foredeckdave Music Thread Manager

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    Is he? I'm not knocking the lad because he's a United player but the 'form' claim is rather silly. How many games has he played this season? How many goals has he scored? How much international experience does he have? How does his present record stack up against other alternatives?
     
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  5. moreinjuredthanowen

    moreinjuredthanowen Mr Brightside

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    media pressure is certainly one aspect of it. the clamour to see the latest thing in while is amazing.

    another aspect is players bascially crying off all the time when they don't really need to so managers are scratching round for a squad

    another aspect is the minute you are at a "big club" you're in.

    the final thing is it used to be the case when dear old daddy watch the footie that you needed to prove yourself for longer than 5 minutes to be selected.

    let me offer the wiser example of ashley young, just how long has he been waiting his chance for england and hasn't he taken it... and he took it in a villa shirt, the utd move has cemented his place inthe side... the point is young has earned his slot I don't see how welbeck can have earned 35% of the vote today.... If in 6 months he's got 25 goals to his name the vote might be justified. Especially if players like bent, defoe and crouch have not. But right now?
     
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  6. Jonesey

    Jonesey Well-Known Member

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    He's scored 3 in the Prem so far.

    Gabby has got 4, Bent 2, Defoe 2, Sturridge 3, Carroll 1 so there's a good argument for saying he's not the form player.

    I was going to check the Stoke players, but the entire team have only managed 4 goals so far. One of them against us <doh>
     
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  7. moreinjuredthanowen

    moreinjuredthanowen Mr Brightside

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    how many games gone?

    In the end do you make a call based on flavour of the month or do you go for the guy who have proved himself... bent has proved himself and done his time on the bench so both sturridge (equally impressive player) and welbeck to be frank should have to go do thier time.
     
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  8. Elpistoleros magic feet

    Elpistoleros magic feet New Member

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    If it were me I would have Daniel Sturridge and Peter Crouch up front. Sturridge is currently the best English striker in the premier league and Crouchs' international scoring record of 22 goals in 42 appearances is bettered by nobody.
    Just because he plays for Stoke should not matter one iota. He was picked when he was on Spurs bench. He's a starter for Stoke and for that reason he should be picked ahead of Jermaine Defoe who is on Spurs bench.
    Danny Wellbeck who is not a regular starter for Manchester United as he's behind Hernandez and Rooney. Andy Carroll is not a regular starter for Liverpool and Darren Bent is good but not great.
    Thats why for me it has to be Sturridge and Crouch.
     
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  9. moreinjuredthanowen

    moreinjuredthanowen Mr Brightside

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    Crouch has that form but either you drop carroll or rooney to bring him. defoe, bent and wellbeck are in possesion of squad numbers now.

    Sturridge is the same as wellbeck, still has to prove it over the course of the year.

    and carroll has some to prove as well!
     
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  10. InBiscanWeTrust

    InBiscanWeTrust Rome, London, Paris, Rome, Istanbul, Madrid Forum Moderator

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    On the assumption that we are going to be playing 1 upfront then I can't see beyond Darren Bent. He's the only one that can do it successfully while also being able to score goals. My views on all are:

    Welbeck - not experienced enough and hasn't played upfront on his own for his club, let alone his country.
    Carroll - not hit form yet & needs someone alongside him to work.
    Defoe - not good enough to start anymore, good impact sub though.
    Agbonlahor - Has been in good form and has the pace and strength to maybe play upfront on his own but maybe need more experience.
    Crouch - see Andy Carroll.
    Zamora - Has been in good form but don't think he's quite good enough to be our main striker - should be included on the bench though.
     
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  11. in carr we trust

    in carr we trust Member

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    sturridge he missed the first three games as well due to suspension hopefully he'll have then had the whole season to prove himself as well.
     
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