A "New Approach To Debating" - Part One.

I have been receiving E-Mails of an ongoing debate between two keen racing fans- entitled "Sea The Stars an all-time great?"I hope it cheers you up - it did me! (Scroll to the bottom to start).
NB. Owing to the maximum of 1000 words, I have to post this ‘debate’ as Part One and Part Two ( Go to Part Two to continue reading)If I receive further E-Mails- and members want to see them- then please let me know.

From: arklesupreme

BTW A nice touch landed on Menorah and Swincombe Flame today...the winners keep rolling in !


From: Mr X
It is not the best I can do but simply I cba anymore in regards to the subject because you must be the only one not accepting that STARS was a great. The fact that you use Youmzain as a form line is beyond a joke. If you want to play that was wasn't it nice to see Phoenix Tower come in front of New Approach and how did he only finish just over a length in front of Pipedreamer. And there is no comebacks because those are FACTS solid FACTS . See you know I don't actually believe that as true form but why do you constantly use formlines that have no true reflection on a race to have a go at a horse you don't like but you are not willing to use them on horses you do like ?.

BTW STS- Guineas, Derby and Arc

NEW APPROACH (Fantastic horse Derby - lost the Guineas to a better horse and Bolger bottled the Arc.


Btw Nice to see Savage put you in your place again on 606. And your fellow sheff wed fan call you a muppet.

NEXT

From: arklesupreme
Is that the best you can do ??

Are you suggesting that Sea The Stars would definitely have beaten Canford Cliffs and Frankel over a mile and Zarkava over a mile and a half ??


From: Mr X

Andy

the fact you are even using Youmzain as a form line is laughable. That is all


Mr X

From: arklesupreme

Mr X,

You are entitled to your view...just as everyone is....however, please don't try and belittle the FACT that New Approach was a champion for 2 seasons not just one,whilst Canford Cliffs destroyed Rip Van Winkle and Zarkava destoyed Youmzain far easier than Sea The Stars did, and I am confident they both would have beaten him as well over their respective best distances just as Frankel would have over a mile, and this season will prove himself over 10 furlongs as well !!

Sea The Stars remains the most over-hyped flat racehorse in recent years ...just as Kauto Star remains the most over-hyped steeplechaser and neither would finish in the first 10 of any all time winners computerised Derby or Gold Cup race as far as many are concerned !

Unlike others,I back up my comments with NAMES as follows...

Gold Cup

ARKLE
MILL HOUSE
GOLDEN MILLER
EASTER HERO
PRINCE REGENT
COTTAGE RAKE
DENMAN
LONG RUN
BEST MATE
CAPTAIN CHRISTY

Derby

SEA BIRD II
SIR IVOR
NIJINSKY
SHERGAR
MILL REEF
NASHWAN
GOLDEN FLEECE
ROYAL PALACE
CREPELLO
NEW APPROACH

And there are other horses whom others might include too in both lists ahead of these two particularly over-hyped horses and it has NOTHING to do with favouritism !

Enjoy !

From: Mr X
Andy

for me this is getting boring now. It is clear to see you have your favs and no one else is allowed a say. You know your racing well enough to surely realise Sea The Stars was never going to win by 20 lengths and just done what he had to. For example his victory over Mastercraftsman and also when Rip Van Winkle drew level with him he pulled away again.

Also get over the fact New Approach was not a great as he was beaten two times by Henrythenavigator (class horse). And don't reply with your usual the ground was too fast in Ireland as if it was STS who was beaten on "unsuitable" ground I know for a fine fact you would be using it as another NEGATIVE against him. New Approach was also a very good horse but he was no STS and that is in my opinion I am not stating it as a FACT like you do about every other horse.

Another opinion of mine is that looking at times is so overrated in this sport. Every other week I seem to hear he has broken the course record etc. Heard the same about Workforce,Harbinger and lots of sprinters in the past few years. Not always the most reliable of sources are times Andrew you should know that

Please do not reply with comparisons to previous horses that race in the 1920s as I do not want to read it

Cheers

Mr X


From: arklesupreme
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Sea The Stars an all-time great ?
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 21:17:22 +0000


Yet again there is more over-hype about a racehorse in the Racing Post and media,following hot on the footsteps of Kauto Star !

Sea The Stars was indeed a truly fine champion....however,an all-time great is hard to agree with when looking at the actual facts surrounding his racecourse performances.

Were the question to be asked of Aiden O'Brien as to where the likes of Rip Van Winkle and Fame and Glory,who both ran Sea The Stars close enough,rank against the likes of HawkWing,Rock Of Gibraltar and Henry The Navigator in the mile division,with all three of those having proved themselves aged 2 as well as 3,unlike the much vaunted Sea The Stars,he would doubtless confirm they were superior over a mile,just as he would endorse the same about Galileo and High Chapparal over a mile and a half,so there is no guarantee that Sea The Stars would have even beaten those horses had they ever met !

More importantly,the truly great Champions prove themselves over more than just one season,and only the year before New Approach had been Champion aged 2 and 3,added to which he was more impressive in his Derby win than Sea The Stars was,having pulled like a train for the first seven furlongs under severe restraint,before coming through to win with only one horse within 5 lengths of him,unlike in Sea The Stars Derby where four or five horses finished in a heap within a couple of lengths of the winner !

I might add that New Approach also posted a faster Derby-winning time,which was amazing considering how he raced,and was the first Champion 2 year old to be a Champion at 3 since Reference Point in 1987,whilst Frankel has followed suit this past year and has been given the opportunity to prove himself in a third season,reminiscent of the great Brigadier Gerard from the early 70s !

I have not forgotten Sea The Stars unique achievement of winning 2000 Guineas,Derby and Arc in the same season,though he remains a one season wonder horse for me and many others and his actual results bear close inspection before placing him on a higher pedestal than he deserves, and he was certainly no Sea Bird II,Ribot,Brigadier Gerard,Mill Reef,Dancing Brave,Sir Ivor,Nijinsky or any other true great from yesteryear as far as many are concerned,all of whom had far superior opposition to deal with, and proved themselves over more than just one season !

Andrew Evzona