Match Day Thread A Classic City goal v Liverpool to savour

Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by JediCanary, Feb 7, 2020.

?

Win Lose or Draw ?

  1. Norwich win

    50.0%
  2. Draw

    25.0%
  3. Liverpool win

    12.5%
  4. Reading

    12.5%
  1. DUNCAN DONUTS

    DUNCAN DONUTS SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR

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    I put Robbie on ignore a few weeks ago , his posts are too lengthy and he comes across as a sanctimonious doom monger

    75% of the games I watched this season we played In I thought we could win or at least draw .

    I have been left shaking my head in disbelief after most games .

    Arsenal at home

    Spurs both games

    Wolves

    Sheffield United at home

    And many more

    The term smash and grab has been worn out by commentators.
     
    #101
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
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  2. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Ditto, Dave. The absence of nastiness is a real virtue of this forum; long may it continue. But too much cosy, feel good agreeing with one another is both boring and unenlightening. IMHO anyway! <cheers>
     
    #102
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  3. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    In which case Duncan, wouldn't a reasonable person conclude that something needs to be done to improve our security system?
     
    #103
  4. JediCanary

    JediCanary Well-Known Member

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    Of all the league games we have lost this season, 7 have been by 1 goal, 6 by 2 goals and 3 (Liverpool & Man U (away), Villa (home) ) by 3 or more goals. If we could have either scored another goal in at least half of the 7 games we lost by 1 goal or managed to prevent the opposition scoring that crucial extra goal we would be out of the relegation zone. A lot of points have been lost due to fine margins - VAR incorrectly gives Pukki Offside against Spurs at Carrow Road, if that goal stands, we get an extra 2 points, Tettey hits post against Liverpool, a few inches to the left and we get at least a point - thats 3 points for starters that we have been unlucky not to get
     
    #104
  5. Canary Spring

    Canary Spring Well-Known Member

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    For goodness sake, Robbie, have a beer or two! You'll feel better. If we're relegated then parachute payments of circa £75M over the next two years plus any player sales mean SW and DF will have plenty of money to invest in the club. My biggest question is, if relegated, how many players will want to leave? Stuart won't let them go for a song, but he also doesn't want players who don't want to be here. It will be choice between a big contract with a PL club vs championship wages in the second division. I think Webber may have have to offer PL wages to some to get them to stay.
     
    #105
  6. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Have you done a similar analysis for the other teams Jedi? I suspect you'd find that every other team bar one or two of the top six could say much the same. Everyone has been affected by VAR, everyone can bemoan near misses. And as regards losing by a 1 goal margin, I'm pretty sure it's the most common winning/losing margin, with somewhere in the region of 34% of all Premier League games won or lost by a single goal. Football is a game of fine margins, full stop.
     
    #106
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  7. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Since I'm currently on one of my frequent visits to California, CS, I think I'd prefer a nice Russian River pinot noir to a beer, thank you!
    If you look back to my posts earlier in the season, you'll see I was in much the same camp as yourself, with faith in the longer term plan to ensure we came back stronger and better equipped to survive next time round. It's that faith I have lost, chiefly because I see no evidence that SW and DF are prepared to make the adjustment to our approach that I think this season shows to be necessary. Next season will provide the litmus test, but at this point I simply see more of the same. More money may bring "better" players, but the best that we will be able to afford won't make the current flawed structure work.
     
    #107
  8. Canary Spring

    Canary Spring Well-Known Member

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    I look at it this way: if we go down, we know this system can get us back up; if we stay up, ...well <cracker> <bubbly>.
    Either way next season will be brilliant!

    Enjoy Cali and the pinot noir.
     
    #108
  9. carrowcanario

    carrowcanario Well-Known Member

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    So basically you were more than happy with the plan when we were overachieving, but now we've had a couple of set backs and we're now just a year / 18 months ahead of where we thought we'd be a year ago, you're not happy.
     
    #109
  10. DUNCAN DONUTS

    DUNCAN DONUTS SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR

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  11. DUNCAN DONUTS

    DUNCAN DONUTS SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR

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    We are a poor man's Dortmund playing in a harder league than Bundesliga.

    Over **** or bust financial planning and an attractive style of play heavily reliant on youth and continental misfits .

    I'll take our approach every time.
    We desperately need another pot of confidence sapping pink paint for the away dressing room.
     
    #111
  12. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    The "set back" that matters is nothing to do with results, not even with relegation; it's to do with DF's apparent reluctance, or maybe inability, to address the fundamental problem that was evident in our performances last season, and predictably exposed this season. What you call "the plan" is not at issue; the issue is DF's ability to deliver it. As I said, next season will provide the litmus test; the mitigations available this season -- finances, injuries -- will no longer apply; it will be all about DF and his approach to winning games of football.
     
    #112
  13. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Quote: "Look at Sheffield United – what would we give for the good luck they’ve had with injuries? I’m pretty sure we’d have at least another ten points if this tragedy hadn’t struck us. As an organisational psychologist myself, I am duty bound to admit I have no actual evidence for that last statement but I know what I believe."

    If I look at Sheffield United, what I see is a defence which has conceded precisely half the number of goals that we've conceded. But never mind, let's not fret about defending better; all that's just part of a "discourse that isn't true". And by the way, didn't the guy notice how entertaining the games against Man City and Liverpool were, when we actually did set out to be defensively solid from the start?
     
    #113
  14. mike555

    mike555 Active Member

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    Last season we comfortably won the Championship playing an exciting brand of football not seen at Carrow Road for many years. All this in spite of many not giving us much of a chance of even making the play offs, What fundamental problem which was evident last season has been exposed this season??? Are you just trying to be controversial? As has been stated many times already, without our dreadful luck with injuries, we perhaps would not even be in the bottom 3 . And regardless of what you say, we have been competitive in most of our games . We have not won as many games as we should have because we have not been converting enough of the many chances that we have been creating. It is difficult to be critical of Pukki, but I still believe he should have scored more than he has . Apart from Cantwell, not enough of our attacking players have contributed to the goal tally. We just have not been composed enough in front of goal, maybe just lacking that little bit of class . But to say we have not been competitive is complete utter tosh. We have been steadily improving during the second half of the season , which is exactly what one would have expected and hoped from a largely very young and inexperienced group of players.. Key to this improvement is also obviously due to the gradual return of most of our injured players. I will certainly enjoy the rest of this season and , if as expected we are relegated, I look forward to us winning promotion again next season. OTBC !
     
    #114
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  15. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Championship 2018--2019:
    1. Norwich City: P46 W27 D13 L6 GF93 GA57 GD+36 Pts94
    2 Sheffield Utd: P46 W26 D11 L9 GF78 GA41 GD+37 Pts89

    Premier League 2019--2020:
    6 Sheffield Utd: P26 W10 D9 L7 GF28 GA 24 GD+4 Pts39
    20 Norwich City: P26 W4 D6 L16 GF24 GA48 GD-24 Pts18

    Last season we won the Championship despite our defensive vulnerability (ranked 8th on goals conceded); we did so because we scored sufficient goals to compensate for our defensive frailty, largely due to Pukki's stellar season. You didn't need to be Lawro to predict that we weren't going to be able to repeat that in the Premier League. Sheffield United, in comparison, had the best defensive record in the league; we outscored them by 15 goals but even so they bettered our GD.

    Now look at our respective stats this season. Sheffield have found scoring almost as difficult as we have; they aren't 14 places above us on account of attacking prowess and hatfuls of goals; the difference is that they are almost as solid defensively in the Premier League as they were in the Championship; their rate of conceding has only marginally deteriorated compared to last season, whereas ours is much worse. Blaming our injuries is head in the sand refusal to admit what last season demonstrated. We are defensively not good enough. Unless we accept the fact and set out to remedy it, we are going to find it harder next season in the Championship and, if we do manage to get back up, will simply suffer the same fate again.

    DF says we are a second division side playing in the top division. So are Sheffield Utd; look at their squad and tell me where the proven Premier League quality is. Only the 37 year old Jagielka who plays second fiddle to the first choice CBs! The crucial difference between us and them is in our respective approaches and the different importance each attaches to defence as opposed to attack. Sheffield are a side built on defensive solidity and an understanding that a goal conceded means scoring twice to take the points. We are not, and it shows.
     
    #115
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  16. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    What riles me is that when DF feels forced to change the approach, e.g. because we are playing a side who he accepts we cannot hope to dominate through possession, it turns out that, far from it being the case that we haven't the players to play in any way other than his preferred way, we actually have, and can do it quite well. Man City and Liverpool at Carrow Road are cases in point. Following the Liverpool match someone posted that we now needed to play the same against our immediate competitors as we did against Man City and Liverpool. Yes indeed, but whether we do or not is up to DF.

    In the Pink Un today, Matt Howman asks which Norwich is going to turn up against Wolves. "Will it be the team who defends diligently, remains organised and resolute or the team that's often under pressure, shipping the average two goals a game?" He writes as if it's a lottery as to which team turns up. It isn't; it just depends on what DF's instructions are on the day.
     
    #116
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  17. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    You make a fair case, Robbie. Where I differ is looking at development over the season. We started last season conceding lots of goals, culminating in the 3-0 loss to Leeds at home. After that we tightened up as new players settled in and our rate of goals against decreased as the season went on. This season we started badly again, conceding 4 at Liverpool, 2 at West Ham and Burnley and then struggled during the chronic injuries. Of late though, 4-0 at Old Trafford has been the only mauling, partly because we carried little threat without Pukki.

    It's about balance of defence and attack and that balance has improved. We've conceded 4 goals and scored 4 in the last 5 matches (3 of those against Spurs and Liverpool, the only losses). Two out of the five have been clean sheets. We have improved defensively and had we taken more of our scoring chances, we could have more points. Zimbo's injury may affect that, but at least we have Godfrey ready to come in. We're also going to miss Byram for the rest of the season, but we have Lewis to step in, having just done a great job in controlling Salah. My hope is that DF has learned as the season has gone on and that will continue from here on out. If it does, it probably won't be enough, but it's a sign that both DF and the team have learned from experience and adjusted accordingly.
     
    #117
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  18. mike555

    mike555 Active Member

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    I don't view last season's goals conceded total as a defensive frailty, more an indication of the style of football the club has embarked on . You either buy into this philosophy , or you don't . Clearly you are not a fan. Not many established Premiership teams would have been able to cope with a similar injury list to ours,....and certainly not the mighty Sheffield United . So, in my opinion this is certainly not "head in sand refusal "to admit that there was a problem last season. Is it therefore merely a coincidence that our form has improved since our injury crisis has lessened . No doubt you will produce some other stats to explain why this has been the case......perhaps even conceding that DF's identifying the midfield as being an area of weakness and that the subsequent recruitment of Duda and Rupp as being the main reason for our improvement .
    Clearly you are very much a stats man, so how many injuries has Sheffield U had to contend with , specifically in defensive areas of the team ? I think you might find that ,certainly by comparison, they have had a very settled defensive unit so far. Furthermore, they are on course to setting a new record as the most successful team to have been promoted from the Championship. So in my eyes, a very much pointless comparison.
    Pukki's stellar season was as a result of the style of football we produced. Would he have made the headlines if he had been playing for Sheffield United ? I think not. As i mentioned previously, a contributing factor to us being firmly rooted to the bottom of the table is that we have not been converting enough of the many chances that have been created. Our goal threat from midfield has been poor and it would appear that some heroes of last season have found it a struggle making the step up to the Premiership, young Cantwell being the obvious exception.
    What DF has achieved in a relatively short space of time is nothing short of miraculous . But of course he is not the finished article, I have no doubt he will get even better as he becomes more experienced. His ability to help develop young players has been there for all to see.; With him at the helm , there is every chance that Norwich will be a successful self funding club, as we continue to attract young promising talent to our club. But if, as expected . we are relegated in May, I sincerely hope that the few detractors, do not make him reconsider his future with the club.
     
    #118
  19. DUNCAN DONUTS

    DUNCAN DONUTS SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR

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    flogging-dead-horse.jpg
     
    #119
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  20. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    Some very good points, Mike. We were always going to be compared with Sheffield United, but as you say they haven't had anything like the injuries we've had and thus have been able to field a settled team throughout. I also suspect that they have around 15 first team players and the rest are making up the numbers.

    Your point about Pukki suiting our style (and not theirs) is also accurate. His comment at the awards ceremony was that "it's easy to score goals for Norwich". Would he have even been there if he was playing for the Blades?
     
    #120
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