I have read a bit of this forum today and wanted to provide a more balance article looking at the Bruce situation. I am of no particular BiB or BoB camp but here are my thoughts anyway from both sides. Bruce IN Steve Bruce took over after the club staying up on the last day of the season by the skin of our teeth. He inherited an expensively assembled, mediocre squad full of deadwood such as Murphy, McShane, Whitehead etc (apologies if my dates end up slightly out). Bruce spent the summer clearing out what he could (getting some pretty impressive fees in some instances) and built a side around a midfield of Cana and Cattermole, along with the goalscoring ability of Bent up front. In that first season we started very well, but ran out of steam when a few injuries hit. However during this period Jordan Henderson was blooded (a decision that served the club very well a few seasons later!). Finishing the season we were never really in a dogfight but we will all agree it got a bit closer than we would have hoped. In his second season Bruce looked to kick on brining in Gyan to replace Jones, bringing in a number of loanees but in the meantime losing Cana. Again the side started very well, troubling the very best in the league. However in January we lost Bent completely out of the blue leaving us struggling for goals, and further injuries meant we again faded away. A bright end however saw us sneak into the top half, and again we were never really in danger of relegation. Season 3 and we have again had many comings and goings. 10 games in and we have had disappointment against Newcastle and Norwich, but also a few highpoints at Bolton and Liverpool, along with the thrashing of Stoke. Surely 10 games into a season is not the time to replace a manager, especially one who has spent very little in terms of net spend, and has worked wonders in reducing the wage bill clearing out the deadwood he inherited. Bruce Out The Bruce Out calls are mainly coming on the back of toothless displays against Newcastle and Norwich. It was expected that a top 10 finish would lead on to another great start and this time a concerted push for the top 7 or 8! We have started poorly and understandably people see the fading of the past 2 seasons and think we may get sucked in to the battle. People cite his inability to keep the big names happy (Bent, Gyan) although I am sure we do not hear the full story in these scenarios. Tactical naivety is also mentioned with games such as Brighton when no out and out strikers playes, and Bruce's lack of impact from his subs. Overall however I think Bruce has done a lot more for the club than we think. I would personally like to see Bruce given this season to see where this squad goes. I believe we are in very little danger of relegation with players like Bendtner, Larsson, Sessegnon around. The man has ensured we are financially secure on the back of Keane's somewhat loose pursestrings and built what appears to be an excellent relationship with the chairman who supports him. Please guys lets give the bloke a chance. People say we need to lose the yo-yo status before anything. As far as I can see we are well on our way to doing this. Lets not get lost in seeing the mags overachieve. I couldnt care less what they do. I want to see our club set up to spend the next 20 years and more in the top flight before we start speculating to push into that top 6.
A good post IMO but I fear most wont and thats fine. I think many of us are neither Bruce in or Bruce out but unless you say you want Bruce out you are automaticly placed in the other camp. Likewise I dont thi nk many, if any, see Bruce as the fantastic manager who never makes mistakes, again we are accused of this. I stopped commenting on these threads because its all been said and I nver see anythinh new, just the same thing over and over again, I again say thats fine for those who want it. The only thing I do say about Bruce, well two things, 1. the games ahead will decide his future and not us. 2. Short will be the man who decides and until he does, IMO, its a waste of effort to see how many ways we can say Bruce in or out. My hope is the last few games have shown Bruce the way, 4-4-2 and attack with players in their best role, do that and I honestly think we will climb the table and have a good season.
I really like your comment regarding the fact it wont be us who decides his future. Yes you could say fan power can work at times but if our crowd went down that route it would firstly shatter any respect Ellis Short has for the fans, and secondly cause him to dig his heels in and do it very much his way. But as you say its up to Ellis. Whether that is a good or bad thing who knows, but for certain Ellis Short wants to make money out of Sunderland, and to do that we have to be successful. He has made a lot of money over the years so I am backing him to get it right with the club.
I think Short made it very clear what he expects, top ten finish and no threat of religation. Right now we could do either, if it gets that top ten is out and the drop a real possibility he will act IMO. That could be mid December so we will see.
A balanced view written by someone who clearly supports Bruce.... "The Bruce Out calls are mainly coming on the back of toothless displays against Newcastle and Norwich." I think it's been a lot longer than this mate probably starting with the first season winless run of 14 games.........got worse with the 5-1 and then the second long winless run in the same season. The fact that we have been on relegation form since the start of 2011 also would sway some towards Bruce out. I think us Bruce Outs also look at his previous records.......never had a club higher than tenth, never had a decent cup run and has relegated a club from the premier league. His managerial cv is very bare... A lot of the Bruce outs i know have ambition for the club. We want European football, a cup run, large crowds, etc etc and to an extent, expect this considering how much money has been pumped into the club since Quinn became chairman. Bruce sadly doesn't have the cv or the tactical nous to provide us with what we want. He can also quite easily get us relegated and gave us our worst defeat to the scum in 50 years. We are in SERIOUS let me repeat SERIOUS relegation form and if left unchecked we will be playing in the championship next season. This will be catastrophic for our club considering the money invested.
I think you will find that posters like myself and cestria are calling for 'Bruce out' based upon the last 11 months... Perhaps you havn't noticed what has been happening since January? Apart from that which to me and some others is blatantly obvious, I just don't see ANY REASON to suggest why we should invest in Bruce for the long-term, based upon his CV. He hasn't achieved anything other than (here we go once again), sacked from one job, walked out of two, relegated a club and won nothing. Why should we place so much trust and faith in a manager with such a poor CV? There is abslutely no logical reason to do so and bearing this in mind with what has occured since Janurary I find it remarkable that ANYBODY could be remotely fully supportive of this manager. These players you quote have currently ensured that after 11 games we sit 1 point above the relegation zone. Why are you so confident that there is very little danger of relegation? There isn't any evidence to make that statement other than what 'you believe' will happen. Other people like myself look at the results, the performances, the number of points we have on the board and the position in the table.
superb detailed comment as usual with analysis and comments chosen to educate.....let's say the ill informed?
LOL becareful now we will get a reputation between the two of us... I'm beginning to believe that the people that would prefer to see Bruce remain as the clubs manager are either his relatives or people that just nod their head and say yes to anything, burrowing their heads in the sand until time has run its course. "Everyting is ok, Bruce will become another Sir Alex aslong as we give him 25 years..." Well... to counter that arguement Bruce has told us to lower our expectations... so he himself doesn't have any plans to become the next Sir Alex... I mean, I and others wouldn't mind so much if we could only get past the 3rd round of a cup competition against lower league opposition and actually play a striker! Why should we put up with crap like that for the next 25 years with a manager that has so many glaring inadequacies? Oh I remember, its because we are Sunderland, according to Bruce himself.
And now the insults begin, agree with me or you are a .......... Enjoy your superior views and we lesser mortals will try and keep up.
I know its early days and the debate has been done to death. But so far can i congratulate the op, newton and pie dodger (oh and syd) for well put constructive points. Good debate lads, nicely put. I'll refrain from posting my views, (as to not lower the tone). Constructive dis.agreements
so if i dont agree with you, i am ill informed? what a pile of **** that is. And stop blowing clockworks horn, its pathetic.
its not the Bruce is good or bad (and where he can or cant take us) that is the problem, its the fact that you insult those who have a different opinion to you. You think Bruce is ****, that is fair enough. Your entitled to your opinion, but I am also entitled to mine without being insulted.
i'm not trying to insult i'm trying to understand your logic of us keeping Bruce. Please explain what your ambitions are for the club and if you think Bruce can take us there
I'm sorry but this is about as balanced as a Margaret Thatcher discussion on the merits of trade unions. You're obviously a big Bruce fan and have weighted the arguments for and against very much in the positive for your man and that’s fine but let me put the other side. My lack of faith in your man stems back since January this year, not just 10 or 11 games this season and a worse set of results I cannot remember since the hapless 15 & 19 points humiliations kidda. We are already back in a relegation fight after only 11 games being 1 point above the trapdoor now and if you didn’t think we were in one last year, then you couldn’t have been at that Wigan game at home with 3 or 4 games to go when the biggest collective sigh of relief was heard throughout the SOL after we won the game and the realisation that we would avoid relegation after all. Bruce is a very moderate manager at his very best and for me he hasn’t even been moderate for us. He belongs back in the small club environment of a Wigan or Huddersfield and not an aspiring EPL club such as ours. He could be here for another 20 years and we would be no better off as a club imo. The sooner he goes the better chance we have of attracting a decent manager but if we hang on to him until its all but buggered (sometime in February or March I'd guess) we haven't a hope in hells chance of getting a decent manager in and it will be back to a complete non entity again, expected to launch a last gasp rescue act. We've seen it all too many times before. I wanted Bruce to succeed. Chopping and changing managers isn’t the answer but it's quite apparent to me he hasn’t, cant and simply wont. I think 2.5 years to show so improvement (i.e. settled team/formation/etc) is well long enough to provide evidence of an ability to progress us. For all intense and purpose, this January, after 5 previous transfer windows, we are still 4 or 5 minimum players short of having even a settled and balanced squad. That’s unacceptable and shows a lack of judgment and ability on his behalf. BTW - Pardew has done it all in 11 months up the road. The case for the prosecution rests.
I think it made it clear TBH. I will say again I am not a Bruce in or out I am a Short will decide not us. Do I want him to succeed, yes because stability is important and if he succeeds it because we are doing well. Will he take us to top 4, no he wont but IMO we wont get a top 4 manager now anyway, I'm looking for him to take us to top ten and I honetly think he can, the next month will be a clue. I do have ambition but realistic ambition, top ten is realistic to me. Its just my view but I dont think I have an absolut right to be right so wont say I give my view to try and educate you who differ in view, would not be that rude. I also would not sugest you are a sheep, poor fan, or have no idea, its all about opinions and all I do is give mine, I'm only right for me.
not trying to insult? I'd love to see how you write your posts when you are trying... Ambitions? next 2 season: Top ten. Cup run would be nice, but not needed. Can Bruce do that? Yes, I think he can. A couple of nice, boring seasons with no controversy, no serious injuries (i can deam, cant I?) and steady squad building (1 or 2 players per window). Following seasons: Push for top 7 (Europe), cup runs and building for Europe - i dont want us to do a fulham and stoke, where we get to europe but then suffer in the league. Can Bruce do this? No idea, ask me december next year.
Thanks for your comments. I by no means agree but as I hope you will do with me, respect that you have your own thoughts on this. I do disagree with one comment regarding we expect success considering what has been pumped into the club moneywise since Quinn came in. This is fair enough in terms of the higher powers in the club, but this cannot be used in an argument over Bruce. It is proven that Bruce has spent very little in terms of net spend. The sale of Bent and Henderson has brought in huge figures, and he did very well getting what he could for other players such as Collins, Murphy etc. Also the wage structure is completely different to how it was under Keane so I think whatever anyone's opinion, Bruce should be applauded for putting us on a solid footing. Now other managers under this financial pressure would no doubt have buckled. People call for O'Neill. Remember at Villa. He spent a fortune and threw the toys out of the pram the first time the chairman resisted the pressure to spend. Dont get me wrong. My head is not in the sand. I dont think Bruce will get us to that top 6 we all desire and we won't fill our ground out in the process. I am certain however he will keep us in this league, without crippling the club financially, and allow us to review in a year or 2 where we can really make a controlled push for the top, or accept we cannot afford to mix it with the big boys and look at other avenues!
