4th Test Teams

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dks said:
When you look at the recent successes in selection, Swann, Sidebottom, Prior, Trott, Tremlett and Bresnan all had a long period in the county game before breaking into the test side (bar the odd appearance hear and there)
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Cook is another example of successful selection. He made his debut in his very early 20s. He is now only 26 and plays with more maturity than most 30 year olds. If he had been picked later, he would probably have a better average now BUT would have peaked later and therefore we would have had less time with him at the top of his game.

I'm not suggesting that all future England players need to get test experience early, but I do believe we should always have one prospect playing primarily county cricket, with the occasional home test appearence when the opportunity arises. For me, James Taylor would be that man!
 
Rubik's Tube said:
Cook is another example of successful selection. He made his debut in his very early 20s. He is now only 26 and plays with more maturity than most 30 year olds. If he had been picked later, he would probably have a better average now BUT would have peaked later and therefore we would have had less time with him at the top of his game.

I'm not suggesting that all future England players need to get test experience early, but I do believe we should always have one prospect playing primarily county cricket, with the occasional home test appearence when the opportunity arises. For me, James Taylor would be that man!
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On form, any batsman will look like they are batting with the maturity of a 30yo but if you cast your mind back a few months, his place in the side was possibly the most vulnerable of our top 6. He had only passed 50 once in the previous 10 innings and there were obvious (and some Sky commentators claimed, serious) problems with his technique. Questions were even being raised by the more tabloidy minded as to whether he should be going on the Ashes tour.

That was at the age of 25 and was not the first time his place in the side has been questioned, so it cannot be said that his selection as a youngster is the reason for his success now. I would contend that the opposite is the case and it has hindered his development and a couple of extra years in the CC would have reaped great dividends.

I would not deny that all players go in and out of form but with those selected younger, the consistency tends to be more variable than with a player of similar (or maybe less) talent picked older.

Take a comparrison between Broad and Bresnan. Both are around the same age and there is no doubt in the selectors' and pundits' minds as to which is the more talented player, yet it is Brsenan who always looks the part when he comes in. On the other hand, like Cook, there have been a few times where there have been calls for Broad to be dropped, like before this series and after the 3rd test of the '09 Ashes series.
 
dks- you make some good points, particularly about Broad's talent vs his consistency.

You have helped me see the selectors point of view, although I still believe it would be a big worry if we come to a situation where our current 28-30 yr olds are all 32-34 and we don't have at least 1 or 2 players with a few test 50s/ 4 wicket innings under their belt ready to replace them! Plenty of time to worry about that tho!
 
This series against India v Man Utd in the Champions League - with the series/league sewn up: Sir Alex would put out a youth/reserve team to give them experience. Maybe we should do that or even just give a few players a go. Can't see it happening, every test is sacred, it's just not cricket.
 
It is complete madness to think of anything other than turning the screw on India and putting a small bit more daylight between yourselves and India/SA.
I listened to the TMS podcast and included in all that merriment was the idea of refocusing and setting new goals. Cook, Strauss, Swann and Petersen all spoke of how you didn't build from 05 and how the tonking you took in Jamaica isn't that long ago. It shows it stung you, it also shows how goal driven this team is. The next one has to be to beat the living **** out of india in the next test. Reset and set a new goal after that. I am fairly sure this group are in no mood to let this go.

You have 5 tests in the subcontinent coming up there is no such thing as a friendly test. You want to get in that team, you'd better earn your way in and let no **** take you out.

Congratulations btw, england are number 1 and deserve to be. I can't believe anyone would want to **** with it.
 
Honestly, no. There is plenty time for younger lads.

If Cook did benefit from the faith shown in him as a younger man, and I am not convinced he did, then the dynamic of sending a guy in at 6 just to get a taste is very different to sending in a guy at the very top of the order. The important thing for england to know is that Bell can operate at 3 if anything happens to the openers or Trott. I think you know now that he can. Learning more than that right now is not imperative.

If it is last chance saloon for Bopara, and it might be, then Taylor can come in for you and play off a platform of 450-5 or something like that at any time. He has shown he has the temperament to take control of a situation and bringing someone in now is going to create a false pressure that isn't going to help him or replicate anything like the situation when he is needed.

No such thing as a dead rubber in Test cricket imo. You said as much too. the aim has to be to bury India for a 4th time.
 
RebelBhoy said:
No such thing as a dead rubber in Test cricket imo......the aim has to be to bury India for a 4th time.
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Amen to that. I can see the attraction of tinkering (with an eye to the future), of course, but I want England to thoroughly humiliate and destroy India, inflicting maximum psychological damage. I want us (I'm an England fan, although not English) to embrace an ethic of single-minded ruthlessness. No prisoners. Ever.

I'd like to imagine that England might be top of the Test rankings for the next decade or so. (Please God, let it happen.)
 
I am pretty neutral about it. Seeing as we don't have a test team(yet) I look at who is playing the best stuff and that is by a distance england at the minute and as such, I'll look at them more than anyone else.

I can only admire the way in which they have gone about their business. To see a plan come to fruition like that is something to behold. Andy Flower seems to me to be the key backed up by guys who have the balls and dedication to put the work in. This is no fluke.

The english seem a bit different to us. If an Irish sportsperson/team does good things, we celebrate that.
I appreciate a lot of english don't like cricket well I can assure anyone reading that it is a lot less popular here, yet the successes achieved in Irish cricket are celebrated almost to a man. england go to number one in the world, it is a huge deal and nobody seems to give a ****.
 
I'm not too sure about that RB, if we were to win The World Cup then you'd see a big celebration I reckon. For instance when we win The Ashes it's a big deal for us, I just think that going number 1 in the rankings, whilst a tremendous achievement, it isn't really cause for mass celebration.
 
Natchrawldry said:
I'm not too sure about that RB, if we were to win The World Cup then you'd see a big celebration I reckon. For instance when we win The Ashes it's a big deal for us, I just think that going number 1 in the rankings, whilst a tremendous achievement, it isn't really cause for mass celebration.
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That's where I find things a bit back to front with English cricket: win The Ashes - bedlam. Deservedly become the best Test team in the world (successfully executing the plan Rebelbhoy mentioned) - next to nothing. This feels baffling to me, however much pleasure winning The Ashes will always bring.

As for the World Cup.....hmm. I've just always preferred Test cricket to anything else. Can't see that changing.
 
Northeast and Godleman were supposed to be the big names from the current youngsters and both, now with plenty of games under their belts, average under 30 and have been overtaken by Hales and Taylor. Stokes and Root have also popped out of almost nowhere and Wells and Bairstow are also making a strong showing. I'm sure that there are others too and of those I've mentioned, Taylor has one of the poorer records this season (in Div 2 to boot). If we were to go down the 'pick a youngster' route, imo Hales for top order and Bairstow for 4-6 look like the stand out candidates at the moment.

There will always be calls for the youngters and most of the time if they are selected they show that they aren't ready, as per the list in one of my previous posts. Many never make the jump to international class, some sit on the fringe and some do go on. The thing is that between 20 and 24 is where we generally find out where a promising young player's ceiling is and/or how they deal with an almost inevitable slump in form. Maybe in a couple of years time Northeast will find his game and be setting the world alight and Hales or Taylor might have done a Schofield and lost it completely, so now is not the time to lob a random youngster into the test arena.

Best to see where they are in a couple of years when we will most likely be starting to look for a replacement for Strauss. By then we will have a much better idea of who is the real deal. The good thing is that we have a lot of names in the hat for when we do need them and if some do drop out, others who may be late developers will surely replace them in any list of 'possibles'.

For now we should be looking at players like Hildreth, who have performed well for a few years, have the right amount of experience, are around the age of coming into their prime and are still young enough to have a 7 or 8 year test career if they show they can make the jump.

edit - One final thought. Four or five years ago, the mantra of the 'select youth' group was 'Bopara! Bopara! Bopara!' and he hasn't turned out to be the Bradman/Tendulkar lovechild that we were led to believe.
 
Natchrawldry said:
I'm not too sure about that RB, if we were to win The World Cup then you'd see a big celebration I reckon. For instance when we win The Ashes it's a big deal for us, I just think that going number 1 in the rankings, whilst a tremendous achievement, it isn't really cause for mass celebration.
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Not just mass celebrations, but actually celebrating their efforts. People talking about it and not just an open top bus and a lad running through a fountain holding a can of beer.

This is a major thing for england to be recognised as the very best at something yet the back page on thursday morning is going to be Samir Nasri going to Man city or some other ****e speculation.

There is another thread on GC with a guy wanting to jump on a bandwagon. No shame at all in that. The majority of folk who "don't like" cricket or say it is "boring" haven't a notion what is going on.

The same is true here but I guarantee you that for 2 weeks after the match against you in the wold cup, the entire country could have picked kevin O'Brien out of a police line up. tomorrow morning at Kings cross station one in 20 could tell you who Cook is. 1 in 15 could point out Peterson. 1 in 25 could point out Bresnan. It is all messed up. Now is the time to beat the drum for cricket.
 
RebelBhoy said:
No such thing as a dead rubber in Test cricket imo. You said as much too.
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Yup, when I suggested we use ODIs to try out different players. I expect there will be 5 or 7 of those coming up.

"Never trust a man who doesn't contradict himself" - someone in the comments on the Independent website.
 
not a dead rubber test as if we draw or lose and SA win there next 4 tests then they will be No1 as we dont play a test now till mid jan
 
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