Off Topic Political Debate

It didn't take long for you to resume the insults, hopefully the forum police are taking note.

 

Was I speaking to you?

No.

Now crawl back under your rock you horrible little man.

 

I'm not sure you have the right idea about forums. It is a place to exchange ideas, sometimes opposing. I think you had better stick to left wing, hard done by, forums only as you cannot debate with grown ups.

 

*sigh*

I don't want to interact with you, get it?

Go away you pathetic little troll.

 

You need to work a bit on your social graces, didn't your mum teach you any manners?

 

I have no idea what you mean by that remark. In case you have not noticed I have stopped commenting on anything other than Match threads and the Nest as what used to pass for debate on here expired. Apart from the boring catalogue of left wing - or at least anti right wing - tripe on here there is no longer a single person willing to counter the left viewpoint with real argument. As such this thread is dead to me.
Please leave me out of it.

 

I think there is sarcasm in Toby's post. Hard work this thread, which is why I tend not to contribute.

 

It should be perfectly possible to exchange vastly differing political views, especially at this unpredictable time, without insults. If views supporting only one strand of politics are allowed then the forum is affectively redundant.

 

Well - where to start? Here would be a good place.

While you may be correct about Trump's isolationist tendencies - you obviously know nothing about American society. To be fair though I have lived here for sixteen years - and just when I think I have 'got it' - something tends to happen and show me that I really don't.

So onto the election itself...

It wasn't much of a choice was it? Two thoroughly dislikeable individuals and their ideas for the way forward. Yes, yes there were two other ephemeral characters in the plot. But they were always inconsequential. How we ended up with these two in a nation of 320 million I will never know. But we did. A thoroughly corrupt Democrat from an entrenched political dynasty against an objectionable pseudo-Republican with some distasteful views.

But in the end it came down less to the characters than to their visions for an America that is deep in the mire. More of the same political elitism, cronyism and financial shenanigans from one and complete change from the other untested and politically unseasoned other.

'Change' being the operative word here. We voted for change with Barack Obama. There was a mood of optimism and hope. Did the proletariat get change? Nooo. Just more of the same 'we know what is best for you'. But it apparently wasn't the best and America struggled through eight years of stagnation, weakness and pandering under a leader who talked a good game but could not deliver - even with his liberal use of Executive Orders to circumvent the loss of control in both houses.

It is less about Trump than the message he delivered. Ronald McDonald could have run on the same platform and the results would have been similar. In the end true Democracy spoke and the majority gave an unqualified 'UP YOURS' to the status quo. They rejected the cult of celebrity with actors and singers telling them who to vote for. They are sick of the multi-layered political elite, of self-interest groups and lobbyists. They are demanding measurable changes to their lot that has seen wages stagnate, costs (especially healthcare under the disastrous Affordable Care Act) soar, jobs disappear under NAFT and no tangible benefit from globalization. And I heartily applaud them all for doing so.

Will it work? I don't know. I think the world became just a slightly bit safer without Clinton's hawkish foreign policy though. I do hope Trump can surround himself with calmer, possibly wiser heads for the inevitable storms ahead. And maybe repair a few bridges along the way (both societal and road).

It's going to be gripping viewing at the very least.

 

Good analysis....

and for a change, not a left-right debate as such. Just a great shame that the personality and sexism/racism of Trump is part of the conduit here...

 

There also seems to be two equally undesirables as the main candidates for the french presidential elections. One is a divisive far far right candidate who may still have designs on some of her father's extreme views and the other is a fraudster convicted of serious abuse of public funds.

Surely France can find better candidates than these two?

 

Excellent post Saxet.
I did briefly catch some analysis of who voted for who by age, gender, social classes and origin. It suggested that Trump collected a lot of votes from the older people who picked up on his message that things could be as they used to be. Discontent with their current way of life will make people look for change, and no matter who is in charge, they will be under pressure. Can you turn the clock back? I don't think you can.
By the way we have £2 million worth of concrete blocks paid for by the UK and no longer required in Calais. Maybe this could be the first trade deal. You could have them half price, but transport to the Mexico border would be down to you.

 

Probably not required OFH, I'm sure most Mexicans will be ****ting bricks by now!

 

Yes just as many Europeans and other immigrants in the Uk after the Brexit vote....

 

Thanks Frenchy. I am already at the border so delivery would be a breeze (forgive the pun) - literally a five minute drive from Casa Saxet to the International Bridge.

It may surprise you to know that I am not in favour of Trump's wall. Through a certain affinity for our southern neighbours and shear impracticality of it - it's a white elephant. The current system is in chaos though. I know a few Border Patrol agents and morale is at an all time low. Illegals are flooding across right now. The common consensus is that they are trying to cross either to gain amnesty with Clinton or before the wall goes up under Trump. But all of it is good business for the Coyotes who smuggle them in.

Yes deport the illegal criminals back South by all means (sorry Mex). But for those already here that have paid into the system and kept their noses clean there has to be a path to legality. We have plenty of room after all.

As for turning back the clock - you make a good point. The 'American Dream' is ultimately a canard and most see it for what it is. But are 'cost of living' wage increases really too much to ask for that demographic?

 

I'm surprised that Cologne has not already called the American election null and void because although Clinton lost heavily she has apparently won the popular vote. They obviously got the rules of the election wrong.

 

It is times like this when a little knowledge of history helps. The U.S. Is in decline because all world leading nations go into decline . The 20th century was the American century. The 21st isn't. When a country goes into decline there is a disparate attemp to regain the greatness that was. This can be in the form of increased cronyism, as illustrated by the Democrats, where ethical behaviour is less evident. The trouble with that is that a leader of the masses arrives to clean things us - Trump.

Trump can now do one of two things. He can either forge a new role in the world for the U.S. or he can lash out at various groups who he blames for the decline, arguing that once they are removed things will get back to former glories. Of course they won't. That path leads to even more problems.

Democracy does not prevent abuses but it certainly reduces the likelihood of them occurring.

My only real worry about Trump is his attitude to climate change. There is no doubt that the World is warming. To combat that requires major structural changes in the way we do things. The U.S., which is clinging to old ways, is giving up the opportunity to be the World leader in dealing with this. I would argue that this is because it is attempting to maintain past glories. Obviously people working in 'old' jobs are fearful. If Trump puts their jobs before 'new' jobs then the world, not just the U.S., is in trouble. The vanquished elite in American society could not institute change so the people let them know that they were not satisfied with them. Enter the saviour. We will see if his visions are of the past or of the future. Attempting to recreate the past leads to infamy. Creating a new and prosperous future is a sign of greatness.

 

You have to admit that it is an unusual system that results in the popular vote being ignored.

 

Yes, but like the UK general elections and referendums everybody knows the rules beforehand.

 

Agreed