The vegan lifestyle is perpetuated on a wave of pseudo-science and self-righteous, the fact you believe that people only disagree with you because of their conscience and not because they understand science, nutrition and more importantly evolution is unbelievably arrogant. I hate to break it to you but animals are killed and the environment is destroyed just so you can live your comfortable western lifestyle, the fact you choose not to eat animal products doesn't change that, although I guess it eases your gnawing conscience a little.
With the way some animals have ended up with venom as a defence, it's surprising that natural selection or evolution just didn't result in pigs tasting crap.
Airlie, don't mind me, sometimes I rant for the sake of a rant. I agree in part with you - my post was haughty and there was no call to present it as was. Part of what you say, I am not so sure about. Personally, veganism was a conscious decision and for me it works. Didn't take it lightly and didn't rush to be part of a fad. I have 25 years of vegetarianism clocked up prior to taking the plunge. For me, no discussion with any other vegans ( I don't know any) and no desire to join any vegan organizations. Just right for me - forget my earlier rant.
Don't worry about it, I understand why vegans can get defensive, I have plenty of vegan friends and they get asked someone pretty annoying questions almost relentlessly by people who are just plain ignorant, its got to grind you down after a while. Personally I have a lot of respect for most vegans, they live their lives to principles they believe without trying to influence of change those around them. However like the loud, obnoxious meat eaters there's a small portion of preachy vegans that follow the lifestyle like its a fashion and unfortunately become most peoples stereotype of veganism, which in my experience is far removed from that. I believe its much like politics, religion and the like, everyones entitled to believe and follow what they want but ultimately should be prepared to let others do the same without judgement.
Yeah, great counter arguments. And same from Lambo (oops!) but at least it was an attempt at humour (I think) so fair enough. Yes, he compares it to the holocaust .. . and rightly so. For example, comparing the trucks sending animals to their slaughter to the death trains the Germans used is a pretty fair comparison. I can no longer stand to see those trucks carrying animals to their death; it's sick, and any compassionate human (animal) should surely have similar feelings if they bothered to stop and think for one second. And no, he doesn't undermine everything I stand for. Ridiculous statement. At least back it up with some sensible argumentation. Or have you not actually bothered to watch it, to watch it all, and with anything near an open mind?
Can't be arsed to read 10 pages but this is my take on it. I am top of the food chain and will eat what I like. Cows, pigs, chickens are all fair game but I won't eat lamb because they're cute and the others are ugly mother ****ers. I don't see anyone slagging off Tigers for eating little Vietnamese children or Lions for eating crocodiles. Survival of the fittest. Innit?
Where to start He selectively picks out human characteristics that don't match carnivores, completely neglecting the many that don't match herbivores either. Makes the analogy of the child with an apple and an animal, neglecting that conditioning and environmental influence would already have shaped a child's thought process by that age. He claims meat, diary and eggs are "responsible for every major disease" which is completely false, in fact theres far more evidence linking vegan products such as hydrogenated vegetable oil, sugar and salt to major diseases. He claims that milk causes osteoporosis, another lie. Claims eggs are hen periods however hens don't have wombs and they do not menstruate, another lie. Claims honey is bee vomit, yet another lie. Ignores the routine killing of mice, rats, hedgehogs, foxes...etc for the production of vegan food. Recommends meat alternatives claiming them to be free of chemicals when most are packed with crap, smart-bacon has potassium chloride in it for example. Makes a load of health claims then recommends a range of processed foods and meat substitutes which undermine the supposed health benefits he preaches about. The holocaust and rape comparisons are quite frankly disgusting, you wouldn't dare say it to the face of a holocaust survivor or rape victim so don't say it online. If you read my posts then you'll see I'm not against veganism, I'm very much an each to their own sort of person but this sort of inaccurate, holier than thou preaching is pretty damaging to your cause. You're not going to change anyones mind by berating them with lies and false guilt, the best thing you can do is present the facts and allow them to make an informed decision. I have more respect for vegans if they do their research and know the facts (both for and against), rather than someone that buys the extremist propaganda this guy preaches. There are enough positive aspects of the lifestyle that you don't need to resort to lying.
You're interpretation, presentation and recollection of what he says is rather different to mine. I suspect you hear and interpret as you wish to hear and interpret. Some of what you say above is simply incorrect, some is simply ridiculous. Of course I personally wouldn't be so insensitive to make such comments to holocaust survivors or rape victims, but I can understand why he would. However, I can clearly see the analogy. As he says, if other animals were asked to describe what we call the devil, they would describe the human animal. What we do to certain other animals is abhorrent beyond belief, and totally unnecessary. Isn't it totally bizarre how selective we are about which animals we abuse and which we don't; doesn't that raise questions in your mind? I have been a meat eater for most of my life. The internet gives access to information and realities that were previously pretty much hidden (and deliberately hidden for obvious reason). Many books, films, presentations, etc have impacted me massively over recent years. It started from a health perspective - talking of which, please don't insult mine or anyone else's intelligence by trying to say that current day meat and dairy consumption is natural and healthy; growing overwhelming evidence has long proven otherwise. And same with ridiculous statements like 'vegan products such as hydrogenated vegetable oil, sugar and salt ...'!!! For gods sake. Anyway, it then changed for me to reasons based as much on compassion as health. A further tipping point was when we got a pet dog a few years ago. I'm wondering if you (or others) have a dog, or cat? If you do, why don't you now go beat it up a few times, inject it full of growth hormones, shove it in a too small cage for a while, then slit it's throat, then while it's still only half dead throw it in boiling water before getting your saw out to cut it in two, then pull it's skin off and chop it up into pieces. Put it in the freezer and eat it over the next few days. Disgusting thoughts eh. No ****ing integrity; just switch off your brains and pretend it doesn't happen while you tuck into your pig, cow, lamb, duck, turkey, etc. Earthlings (film readily available on you tube) and Carnism (book and you tube video) are 2 other sources that impacted me, among MANY more, some even more shocking, educational and thought provoking. Too many people unfortunately have a closed mind, or choose to deny / ignore reality, or just can't be arsed. Each to their own maybe, but ****ing shame on you. I won't debate further as it does my blood pressure no good. I'm convinced though that if people with at least a degree of intelligence are honest with themselves they do know the truth. Unfortunately too few have the balls to acknowledge it and do something about. It's easier not to do something about it, to go along with the brainwashed masses, and to make stupid ignorant snipes at people (like Yourofsky) who are not prepared to sit back and let such evil wrongs go unchallenged. I am equally convinced that the tide is now turning, for various reasons - in decades to come future generations will look back at us and be saying what the fcuk were they doing and thinking.
Based on that rant, I've decided to double my meat intake, you're now responsible for the death of several pigs and cows.
And it's statements like that, which pretty much point out the preachy nature of your cause. You assume that you have to be intelligent to recognise animal cruelty (ignoring the fact that a lot of people know where steak and sausages come from, they just don't view it as cruel). Somebody used the words "I have an evolved mind because I'm vegan, and you don't", the other day. I literally had no words. Comparisons to pets are totally off, because of what a pet actually is. Basically, if you aren't vegan, you're an idiot. That pretty much sums it up. It's funny, you watch a few Youtube videos and read a few books and all of a sudden, the one true path just happens to open up in front of you? The one way to be truly ethical and morally secure, just happens to be the way of life you discovered. Funny, that's what a lot of religious people say, isn't it? Join our way of thinking, if you don't, you'll burn in hell/live an immoral life/suffer ill health/live a life scorned. So here's some guilt trippage to persuade you to join. Now, go out and tell other people of our cause.
Its exactly this sort of thing that gives vegans a bad name, you are someone who has eaten meat most of their life and statistically will eat meat again, yet you've changed your behaviour, beliefs and your opinion of other people based on some extremist propaganda. You have now falsely elevated yourself intellectually and morally above others, based on a little truth, a lot of hypocrisy and a smug arrogance. I genuinely feel sorry for other vegans that have you representing their lifestyle, there are many positive aspects that should be celebrated but you seek to further drive a divide between those that share your beliefs and those that don't. You have shown you are not capable of sensible debate so I see no point in continuing, I'll go back to writing my unintelligent academic papers with my ignorant, brainwashed mind and you can continue liberating animals and changing the world (or more likely doing precisely **** all about something you strongly believe in). Oh and if your blood pressures high, try cut back on the salt
It was so much nicer on here when discussing the best way to prepare pork products. Can't beat a bacon sandwich.
I honestly can't believe that someone has compared the slaughter of a cow or a pig to the holocaust. It's quite possibly the most ridiculous thing anyone has ever said on this board.
Well after reading this thread for the majority of the week. Today's payday. And Honestly, That which I normally allocate for a fortnight's subsidience/sustenence allowance in grocery shopping. I have just spent in Holland & Barrett. And - Stone cold Turkey, as they say, No weining Into IT. I wish to see If I feel any different in 2 weeks.
A recent study* found that the rise in radical veganism, corelates to the discoveries associated mad cow disease. Coincidence, corelation, causation or conspiracy? Are vegans daisy's revenge? *It's so recent, I've only just made it up, but it's a good bet Google would find something to support it.
Without a meat industry we wouln't have leather or eggs or milk (cheese etc).....we would see Cows & Pigs possibly Chickens & Ducks as endangered species
Thought we had humane killing methods nowadays but alas halal meat is allowed! Why arnt vegans who "care" protesting against that? If they can win that arguement then perhaps they could perhaps make me think more on it. But id reserve the right to say nah! Steak well done cos I do hate my mash turning red....
